If you want to talk about TAGs that are super unfun to play against and hard to counter then Avatar would be my top choice to showcase that. It comes down to: you don't have msv2 with decent burst, damage and AP ammo? Don't shoot it, it a waste of orders. You don't have mono/em/ap+exp cc weapon with good cc, martial arts and smoke? Don't melee it. Even hackers have issues beating wip 17 reset and bts9 with oblivion. And the best part: if you succeed at isolating avatar and grant him any Aro he can reset out on 8s. This is something that can completely overwhelm opponent if he didn't bring something to counter it. (And due to unique mix of rules avatar requires specific counters that are not that easy to find). So how does b3 TAG without visual mods and 2 kuang shi compare to that? I dare to say that give him only b2 weapons and allow him to form core with kuang shi, and it still would be tamer.
It's a matter of degree. 1. KS straight-up offensive power and utility is too high for multiple peripherals to have it: Kuang Shi are a little nastier than a normal peripheral (Dogged, Explode). One of them is probably inside the power range of a peripheral with light shotgun for example, if a bit more lethal because they can close in and Engage any opponent who Dodges the chainrifle, allowing the TAG to close in and gang up in CC. And if they fail they get close and Explode. Now -two- of those that can act one after the other while the TAG hides around a corner... that's way too much. 2. Too many good troops under a single troop-slot: Yes, KS can link. KS could link -and- you could have this KS-packing TAG (which puts a KS and a TAG in a single troops slot out of your 15, to boot). That's a problem if you start adding a lot of KS in there under that single unit slot, on top of the normal staying-power of a TAG. IMO one is powerful but inside the acceptable range: two or more is ridiculous and outside that power range. The great thing about @Weathercock 's design here is that it's comfortably within the range of the current rules (and no, let's not consider the abusive outliers int he rules right now as part of that normal balance). Fanmade stuff is fun to play with when it's inside that range, and can actually influence the designers' ideas if they see it and think it makes sense and fits. Throwing together an OTT wishlist does not have that effect, and is not much fun to play in casual or narrative games with friends. I would put multiple Kuang Shi peripherals into the blowing-the-power-curve area based on hitting power, utility, and troop-slots. But that's just my opinion. Weathercock's done the hard work here, his opinion is the one that matters.
This is why the Avatar is 118 points and the lynchpin of an entire army. Don't compare things that are on the extremes of power-range while trying to build balanced units. Also don't ignore context, ie the rest of the CA army or the horde of KS that this TAG would be accompanying in many ISS armies. Also I strongly disagree that you need a serious CC specialist to tie up an Avatar. Getting a basic Morlock into CC with an Avatar is a classic move. 2 of them, 12 points, the Avatar is useless while you whup the rest of the army. Same can be done with any cheapo warband, or even a few basic troopers. 3 LI ganging up on an Avatar are going to tie it up for a minimum of 3 of its own orders.
TBH I think the Kuang Shi's regular profiles should just all be shitcanned and they should all be moved to peripherals on various units. Doing that would let ISS play order spam without being order spam. You could spam up the field with over 15 bodies easy, but they wouldn't be generating an ungodly amount of orders.
Not as easy in N4 because warbands lost stealth and TAGs get a lot of dodge/disengage chances while you are trying to encircle him
How are the feet structured? is the "spike" linked to the sole or free standing? have you considered a more padded sole? given the TAG is supposed to be employed for ISS its main function will be in friendly urban environments hence minimizing ground damage would be a consideration.
Looks like they're supposed to be raptor talons to go with the bird motif. When I first saw the hacking changes and the implications of guided really started to sink in for N4, I jokingly said the old "FUCK TOHAA" memes brought on by symbiomates were basically going to come back for N4 as "FUCK NOMADS"
The Triads own all the repaving companies and deliver a nice fat brown envelope to any imperial agent who calls in a Jingwei on their turf as long as their interests aren't harmed. The Triads make a decent profit on the road repair, the agent shares his envelope with the TAG pilot, and everyone is happy! Maybe it should be a red envelope in Yu Jing, either way...
These are good points. I'd still go for it rather than trying to outshoot the thing unless you've Mimetism and a link, are in close range, and don't have a cube. Morlocks are 6 points and generates their own orders. Desperadoes, or a synched Antipode, even better.
Simple solution would be to give the Kuang Shi Heavy Riotstoppers. Would make them cheaper. But they should still explode, obviously. I like the Peripheral Kuangs. A Jingwei with a pair of Kuangs in CC would be an absolute monster, but even then I'm not super keen on spending 70-80 points on a B3 gun, even if it comes with a visor. For my part, I would replace Stealth with Hacking ECM to avoid weird ARO foolery with the Kuang Shi, and I'd love a higher burst gun, even if it means losing C+. I've seen you mention Cranes being a good platform for Breaker Spitfires, maybe the Jingwei could be the right place to test that out? In either case, the concept looks amazing and I'd love to see more!
Mk12s are costed pretty much identically to Spitfires, always bugged me the Spitfire is generally speaking considered hands down the superior gun.
They're similar to a heavier-duty version of what the Daoying wears. The version of the art without the tabard (not uploaded) shows how it works better, and the glamour shot I'm working on will better display it as well. Basically, reverse jointed shock absorbers.
Higher burst weapons seem to be limited by SWC, which I guess is fine? Maybe? Mk12 is decent enough but I just don't trust B3 guns on BS14 troopers. I've rolled enough 15s on my Hsien to know how easy it is to lose a fight if you're not putting enough bullets downrange. That aside, I'm not even sure a Breaker Spitfire would be all that better than an AP Spit? Obligatory Ariadna counter aside (and that's a big aside lets be real), it only really starts being better against ARM8/BTS6 TAGs or the occasional ARM 5/BTS3 HIs. Seems like a great Anti-TAG weapon
My gold standard for Peripherals is the Gorgos' Chaksa B; I know Gorgos gets kind of a bad rap as a holdover from N3, but it packs an interesting enough kit to be worth a second look here within the context of a TAG loaded with Kuang Shi. Any discussion about Kuang Shi peripherals being too strong seems moot in the face of an AP Spit carrying TAG whose peripheral has a large template, mimetism, and PH12 E/M Grenades.
Also shows the Kuang Shi should be 2 or 3 points as a peripheral as well going off the Pulzar profile.
So I think the thing to do is actually try it out. Find a friend and play it. Then find out how it works. All things sound good/bad on paper. Then report back.
Who wrote about E/Marat earlier? I like the idea of E/Marat. Also think this has good reason to be a Stealth TAG. I think Chain Rifles and Pulzars are free on nearly all units that have them, just like Nanopulsars and Chain-Colts, and looking at Bluecoats it seems like Heavy Riotstoppers cost 2 points just like Heavy Flamethrowers However, just like you basically point out with the Gorgos, I think the loss of Regular would make a Peripheral style Kuang drop in price to 4 and not being REM would be moot, so the price should be sorted anyway.
Very good work on that dossier! I like the idea of Kuangs as peripherials, but I think that will require models in the box and could be achieved by allowing him to Duo with Kuang or even Haris. The CC abilitys could be toned down a bit except the Para, thats fitting. Maybe no MA, CC20 and AP CCW. Stealth could be transferd to ECM -3 Hacking and someone here mentioned Breaker Spitfire, I think that a cool idea to keep a high burst without the B+1 on the whole profile. MSV 1 is cool, Riotstopper too. Maybe add Sensor (I could imagine, that a "police" TAG is outfitted with tracking and detecting systems).
