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How would you fix [x]? Week 10: Al Fasid

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Knauf, Feb 4, 2021.

  1. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    The hacker can be in a marker state. The info is just hidden here instead of putting it in the FAQ.
     
    #141 Tristan228, Mar 14, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2021
  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Bingo
    1w non-marker units, 1w DZ solo/haris units with big price, 1w drop troops (those are still good but require more set-up now) - all basically dare opponent to template you in a trade if possible
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind the Boarding Shotguns and heavier getting the template while making Light Shotguns cheaper and giving it access to a DTW mode for "+ Light Shotgun" units and making them cheaper has moved them in an obnoxious direction, particularly the "Rifle + Light Shotgun" units, but that's a systemic level thing that we can't address by making alterations to the Ye Mao.

    Unless there's some clever alteration that can be applied across several units in the same boat.

    On the other hand, we no longer have Chain Rifles on half a dozen irregular units spaced generously throughout the opponent's DZ so... I think mostly what it's accomplished is make impersonation/infiltration melee assassinations higher risk and has made the opponent's DZ almost as hostile to single-wound Combat Jumpers as it is for Liu Xing and RoboMonkeys.
    Can't really fault it on Light Shotguns alone, either, considering how nearly everyone have a Nanopulser or Chain-Colt.
     
  4. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I really like Bagh-Mari and I really want to like Ye Mao. I'd probably like them better if they had 6-2 MOV, or FD+4", and the fact that they can't link with Liang Kai is just...weird. I haven't gotten enough games in with White Banner to have a solid opinion on whether Ye Mao are actually bad, but they do seem designed for a list style that is off-meta.

    The question of how off-meta is too off-meta to be viable/competitive is maybe a separate question, but this whole thread has me wondering if the problem is units being too off-meta, or if the problem is that the meta is too constrained—and why.

    Anyway, my wishlist for Ye Mao just on principle:
    • 6-2 MOV
    • Linkable with Liang Kai in White Banner
    • Core link option in White Banner
    If you want to get really crazy, give them Jump (BS Attack (-3)) instead of 6-2 MOV, to give them the equivalent of Mimetism -6 while jumping. It would make a full-order Super Jump more survivable by making them harder to hit, but their 4-4 MOV would limit the effect of pop-tart attacks and they still wouldn't get the weapon damage reduction of real cover while jumping. It's also an incentive to keep them on the bounce, which fits with their fluff, but would only work when they're solo or in an all-SJ link.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Super Jump(-3) should honestly be at least considered for all Super Jump units given how poorly it performs as movement skills and the fact that it's so much more difficult to effectively use the skill to deny cover in this edition.
     
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  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Honestly that's the issue.

    DTW troops were specifically well regarded for what they brought (see Naffutun vs Ghulum). Every man and his dog getting DTWs really does adversely affect 1W troops.

    Removing templates from LSGs allows you to build LSG, DTW profiles - but only on those troops where you want that.

    Troops like Wolfy getting a DTW on top of everything else is just dull and CB should stop doing it.

    I don't think YMs are bad troops: they just suffer from systematic weaknesses. Trying to fix that at the profile level is largely pointless.
     
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  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling they tried to make what some people wanted, which was Non-Combat Jump Tiger Soldiers. Maybe they though they looked to plain? Or they are just +1 BS Kaplans. But I know I would have been happy with that. Maybe too good? The MSV1 is good but I don't think it needs to be on all models. AP Spitfire is fine. Multi-Rifle is over doing it. It's like they just expected more TAGs, so gave that to them.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, man, that Multi Rifle isn't very expensive this edition and every bit of damage helps, now that ARM 4 units are so common, not to mention DA ARO. I've tried theorycrafting that Combis were enough before and got stomped a few times when trying it and that was in N3 when you didn't need damage output on crits.
     
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  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Good points. Maybe it is needed but I'd rather they were more like non-jump Tigers with at most Forward Deploy instead. Well I always say, they will change things if people don't play them.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Anyway - haven't we done YMs to death? How about a new one?

    Perhaps the Iguana?

    My preferred solution is simple:

    1. Change Escape System so that "If the TAG lost more STR points than it had remaining, the excess points are lost and are not subtracted from the Pilot's profile."

    Alternatively:
    1. AP Spitfire alternative profile, BS13 Operator
    2. Reprice Iggy based on the fact that she dies really quickly.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Is this primarily a price issue or an escape system issue? Because if you’re going to talk about the latter, you can’t ignore the Anaconda.
     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    Seems to be an Iguana thing, at least coming from MRRF and its Anaconda. The extra overflow Wounds are saved on the TAG's ARM already in that sort of situation. I don't really have any gripes with the Escape System except that, unlike all other TAGs, they're useless for scoring on button-pushing missions.
     
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Why alternatively? just go for all, the first point regarding wound bleed over would also be very useful on the Anaconda.

    So the main Issues I have with it are;

    1. It is way too squishy for is meant to be the MBT of the sectorial, at 2w and ARM 6 (before you get busted down to a very meh HI).
    So I would at the very least buff it's ARM to on level with the average for a MBT (8) at a minimum, and fix escape system in the manner @inane.imp mentioned (or bring back the man cannon so I can do dumb cheesy bullshit in capture and protect).

    2. It has the offensive capability of a small child with a nerf bat, it's mostly harmless. Late N3 I found that most of the time the HMG rounds just pinged harmlessly off of what ever I was shooting at, and in N4 this issue has increased by order of magnitude due to most of the stuff sticking it's face out in hard ARO are arm4+ HI in cover and the meaning a standard HMG has a snowball's chance at doing anything (at least in my experience so far). And the operator doesn't fare much better being a basic BS12 Arm 3 HI with a HMG. This is on a platform that wants to be long range fire support but thanks to it's in built repeater you kind of want to push it forward to leverage it.

    So a few things can be done, bump the operator to BS13, and give it an AP spitfire like mentioned previously (Though this would have it steppinng on the toes of the geckos and probably invalidate it more) and in the same vain as the Anaconda. Or alternatively give it another or replace the secondary weapon with something a bit more brawly for when it does start fighting in closer quarters (SMG, Assault Pistol, or shotgun).
    Also taking a note out of the Gecko's playbook for +2 dam instead of +1 would also be a welcome change if you didn't want to fully overhaul the profiles.

    3. The sister TAGs and cost, The Iguana is a full 10 points more expensive than its (in lore) predecessor the Anaconda, and doesn't really have all that much to show for it though, it has less arm, but more arm and wounds on the operator both of whom have the same BS thought the TAG version of the Iguana has +1BS. and yes the repeater and ECM probably make up that difference but when it comes to being effective on the table I know which I prefer and its not the supposedly more advanced model.
    But for in faction(read just CJC) comparisons we have the Geckos, glorious little bastards that murder anything you point them at, they trade a 32 gun for 24 have an extra point of damage and pick up a more relevant weapons cost less SWC, cost 9-14 points less, can bring a buddy with them in a duo, have the same arm value are smaller and with a better pilot.

    So first thing, I would prefer to keep it as a long range fire support with the HMG so as to separate it's role from the gecko. As much as I would love to slap AP on there and call it good, giving +2 Damage to keep a similar piece of rules design across the CJC TAGs would be more interesting, and at that point with some of the other changes it becomes the Geckos bigger and meaner brother that'll see play as opposed to a dust caked paper weight on the shelf.


    TLDR; +1 or +2 Arm, +1BS on the operator, fixed ES, and an additional +1 dam on BS attacks, and maybe Duo.
     
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  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I’m very hesitant to change the ES wound overflow, because no other state change rule in the game has a clause like that. Generally speaking, if you hit something with some big flaming explosive projectiles, you have the chance to kill it all the way to dead.
     
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I have more operators die to over flow damage than I have not (The N3 Iguana only ever fired corpses), to the point that when I play the Anaconda I don't pack the operator in my case anymore, and with the Nature on N4 crits as opposed to N3 I see this happening more, so it'd just be a nice quality of life change that means you will be able actually use that aspect of the tag, especially considering you cant repair them.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Sure, just be prepared for an appropriate amount of salt from users of various forms of Transmutation.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Either it's an Escape System issue OR it's a price issue for Iggy.

    Honestly, I don't think it's an issue if Annie got a little bit better because her Operator was guaranteed to stay alive. Her operator is hardly a major threat (she's often less scary than a Gecko's Pilot).

    Re: people with Transmutation complaining. Gorgos gets Dr'd with a reroll or Medkitted vs a PH of 16. That makes it a lot easier to keep up in this edition and is a significant advantage over Escape System. The other cases of Transmutation are basically cheap ways to get an extra wound (compare Ectross vs MB - they seem to get the 3rd wound for less than 5pts).

    Iggy compares with a Tik. Tiks are 68pts and take the same number of STR to Kill (I use STR required to kill because that's actually the most important metric for TAGs given how useful reviving them is). There doesn't appear to be any discount associated with Escape System despite its extremely negative effect on combat potential.

    Re: LR Firesupport. She simply doesn't have the capability to do what you want a LR Firesupport piece to do: brute force median AROs (BS13 HI MLs in a Core). She honestly is only barely reliable vs even lower end AROs (ie. Grunt AP Sniper or equivalent). Even adding AP to the HMG (which is ridiculously obvious) barely improves this.

    Edit: I haven't run the numbers but I'm fairly sure that a Core Linked MB HMG - in CJC - or a Kriza HMG - in Vanilla - will outperform an AP HMG Iggy vs a BS13 HI with ARM4 in a Core.

    That and her secondary kit (that you pay soo much for) is basically designed for the midfield: HFT, Repeater and ECM Hacking all provide survivability for a TAG that has moved out of the DZ and are largely irrelevant for a TAG that's held back at range where it can be relatively easily screened by Nomads DZ defences.

    Adding AP to her HMGs and BS13 to the Operator is probably the minimum change required to get this to work: but it'd probably need to drop to ECM Hacking to prevent a price increase.

    Re: a short ranged Iggy stepping on a Geckos toes. It does a little, but there's a lot of unique differences between an AP Spit Iggy and an MMR Gecko - even if they're within ~5pts of each other. Particularly for missions like Frontline or Panic Room I can see myself arguing for 6-4 4Ws BS14/13 in the zone with a HFT, Repeater and ECM Hacking rather than 6-2 3STR BS13 with a Chain Colt .
     
    #157 inane.imp, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Adding AP does make you feel better about it and makes your big stompy robot feel more lethal, but as far as numbers go against an arm4 target you go from it saving on 7-8s to 11-12s which is often difference enough to cause a wound.

    Yeah I wasn't entirely sure what to do about that, its very much redundant, and would probably get scrapped in favour of saving points for other stuff.


    To be fair the gecko gets three wounds of using the chain colt compared to the iggy's 2, and it's primary weapon is only on 0's as opposed to -3 when things get up close which isn't terrible when you are talking about Dam 15 DA or a dam17 MK12. thing is you end up with a similar problem to the Boyg and Koj and other super similar pieces in a sectorial where there are functional duplicates or pieces competing in the same arena, while they have some differences they are largely academic and more often then not the cheaper and more reliable will win out. That beinng said in panic room the smoke it brings when the pilot gets kicked out could be useful, to stop it from getting completely cleared out in a single turn.


    also given how operators work in scoring part of me does want to be a little more expensive.
     
    #158 Tourniquet, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    How about dropping the DZ-to-DZ assumption and make better use of the midfield kit in a way that doesn't step on the Gecko's toes- a big MOV boost up to Motorcycle values? Corregidor and Nomads Vanilla both have great control of the midfield, so they could actually make a lot of use out of a big piece like that being able to get into the fray in record time for flanking shots and picking on low-quality ARO before retreating to a safe distance with minimal waste. It would definitely need a cheaper Operator to work in this role though, since having the speed only on the TAG form would make it the most frail TAG in the game for the purpose of doing its job.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So that (8-4 Move, Terrain (Total)) still demands an option to be coupled with an AP Spitfire. But very cool and distinctly different to Geckos (Tank vs Aggressive Flanker).

    Honestly, for the Operator in that context: BS13 AP Spitfire, 6-2 Move, Terrain (Total) is interesting as a light HI.

    One of the boring things about Iggy is that when your Operator does survive quite often you spend the rest of the game hiding her - because she's not good enough to risk losing all the points bound up in her. So you could even add Frenzy to the Operator and use the points saved to buff her: this marginally undermines the role as "really good at preserving points in a zone" but accentuates Iggies as highly mobile aggressive attackers.

    It also makes a key point of difference between her and Azrails in QK.

    Re: AP HMG in Firesupport role. I did the maths vs a Core Linked BS13 ARM5 HI (single order of shooting).

    MB HMG in Core: 42/15 vs 21.5/13.3
    Kriza: 41.5/14.4 vs 21.5/13.3
    Azrail: 35.2/24.1 vs 41.14/26.23
    Iggy: 37/14.1 vs 34.7/19.9
     
    #160 inane.imp, Mar 17, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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