Mary Problems also has Trinity (AP) so just skullbusts Interventors directly. TBF a lot of people have been arguing that the solution to strong Hacking is using tools like AD, Stealth, marker states and assassins to outflank Hackers and avoid Repeaters. So, we also want playing to feel like that too instead of just throwing dice until one side, probably the Reactive, dies. Fundamentally we disagree that adding a KHD to a list is a compromise that should threaten high BTS Hackers trivially. It's barely a compromise giving the profligate way KHDs have been handed out and their mission utility. I do, however, think adding a KHD should be a reasonable way to make using High BTS Hackers harder (ie give them a decent ARO). It's that difference (KHDs should threaten Interventors vs KHDs should constrain Interventors) that involves a lot of nuance and is getting drowned out in the "Nomads bad nerf Nomads / meta has shifted, git gud" tone of the conversation.
There's a greater question of if KHDs are doing their job, and right now they kind of aren't. The problem with the other tools you mentioned is that a hacker doesn't make themselves more vulnerable to any of them by hacking; if a lynchpin hacker (or lieutenant) is capable of being threatened by the opponent, one could assume that they could threaten just about anything on the battlefield, which implies a level of positional control that shouldn't be necessary to counter hackers. Attacking enemy hackers through their repeaters should be a viable solution, because that is the way that hackers expose themselves as they develop their strategy. The problem is that with the way firewalls and tinbots work, BTS 6+ hackers behind firewalls are very, very difficult for KHDs to kill. Nomads are the most egregious example of this, and are the undisputed masters of hacking in N4 since the Combined Army got that part taken away from it.
Maybe providing challenging but rewarding ways to evade those Repeaters and Tinbots could be fun, letting KHDs do their job while still providing defensive value to those tools. There's an effort there with Cybermask, but it doesn't apply on deployment which makes a lot of the forward KHDs that would help in these situations ironically vulnerable to being Hacked themselves. At present, to be useful, a KHD needs to be able to threaten enemy Hackers into not developing their Repeater network beyond their ability to defend it, or be able to effectively strike in Active to limit the damage those Hackers can do. The latter seems unpopular with everyone who isn't Hecaton, though he makes a good point about Repeaters being the means by which tanky Hackers develop their strategy, so whittling down the Firewall lines in active while also providing for potentially dangerous ARO seems to be the way to go for solutions people could actually enjoy. I've mentioned before that I think EVO platforms are actually a good place for Hacking hard ARO; they're the most expensive type of device and in all but one case are limited to slow, poorly-armed REMs. KHDs picking up a more complete assassin toolkit (things such as anti-Comms Equipment programs or ways to prevent them from facing Hacking before they're ready) could also be great, though it would likely have to come with a cost increase.
@inane.imp did you suggest a hacking program upthread for KHDs that was Stun ammo? Because that might be the ticket. Make it B1 so it's not an active turn thing, but give it like +6 mod or something (or a +3/-3).
It's not a bad idea but I think it'd have to impose a different state to stunned, because otherwise you can just sit next to a doctor and keeping ignoring the KHD until you hack your target. The non lethal idea ARO is ok but it needs to be a non clearable one to encourage engaging the KHD first rather than just ignoring it. I think there needs to be a significant penalty for daring to ignore a KHD, even if the result is non lethal.
It was Hachiman Taro's idea originally. I thought around B2 +3 WIP DAM16 AP+DA. I don't think adding a -3 WIP is particularly useful and I don't see it as too much of a problem in Active as a way to thin out AROs. @Triumph the point is to make it inefficient, not impossible. It's usually ~2 orders to get a Repeater down to where you need it, ~2 orders to get Oblivion off vs a WIP13 BTS3 HI Lt without Tinbot (ie the squishiest Hackable Lt going). Adding a further 2 orders to remove Stun starts making that a 6 order play to ISO an enemy Lt: it increases the median order budget by 50%. Adding in Tinbots and higher BTS or WIP just reduces the efficiency further. It is possible I get lucky and do it in 3 orders, but it's equally possible I don't achieve it with an entire Order Group. In that situation I'm much better off spending the 2 orders to get the Repeater down and then using a KHD to clear out the defensive KHD (~2 orders) before going to Oblivion. But I can only do that if it's not in a Marker state. What really excites me about Stun is that it balances our concern (KHDs that can reliably kill Interventors through Firewalls largely invalidates Interventors) and your concern (Hackers that are untouchable can operate with impunity) while providing a cool trade-off (higher chance of success vs lower impact). If you really want to up the anti (while staying less than lethal), Stunned+IMM-B is a good combo that's extremely inefficient to get rid of (as it needs Dr + Eng/Reset). That at B1 could be very interesting. But honestly, the B2 Stun program and swapping Carbonite's and Oblivion's stats probably makes it inefficient enough that it stops being a go to tactic.
I'm coming at it from the perspective of I would like my Guijia to see the table again as a Vanilla player. Deploying a defensive hacker is literally the only option I have here to prevent my TAG from not being my TAG anymore if I go second. I need something that would actually punish say Valerya from just saying "eh, fuck it" and rolling her enhanced total control at my Guijia. In general I think it needs to be difficult to ignore the KHD, otherwise there's a good chance we have to reconsider things like WIP15 B3 Oblivions that stand a pretty strong chance of passing on the first attempt. If you're sinking 20-30ish points on the KHD to be an ARO piece it needs to generally be the first target or it's really not doing its job, especially if you're parking a midfield specialists not in the midfield but your DZ to try and defend shit (and I think everyone except Fatherboxx agreed that was a terrible way to use a Naga right now). Take into account there's a high chance this guy if he fails at home he's in a faction that can't repeater project very well and will need to physically run across the table to still do something next turn, so it's a pretty big investment to put him on ARO duty.
I use a Hexa HD for this in NCA, plan is to reveal it in the back of the DZ after a Possession and drop Total Control or even Oblivion on the possessed TAG while it deals with a Machinist's Palbot deployed in base contact. Still not great for me, and it doesn't hurt the enemy, but it wastes Orders and that sort of list archetype usually isn't running Hackers into the enemy Repeater net so the backup Hacker should be fairly safe unless the enemy fires more Pitchers right past an active TAG. If I were to replicate this in YJ I'd use a Daoying or even just a solo Zhanshi HD on the edge of ZoC, active Hacking is pretty inefficient if multiple Pitchers are required. Sadly doesn't do much for the LT issue though, you can't un-Oblivion something before reactive turn ends.
Dropping a repeater onto what turns out to be a KHD should be dangerous, the equivalent of walking around the corner and have a TO model reveal and shotgun you. It doesn't have to be nonlethal.
I get your point, but that analogy breaks down because of how ARO timing differs between placing repeaters and moving.
Yeah so funny story, people stopped doing the palbot/warband to ground TAGs in my meta because the hackers realised they could bypass ECM by spotlighting the model in B2B contact and hitting that with the first missile instead to splash the TAG. Not as big a deal for RP TAGs but losing a couple of wounds for a manned one sucks because they're so sketchy to repair.
Good to know, haven't seen that going on around here. On the bright side it gives Yu Jing a bit of an advantage for all that Kinematica for once; a Shaolin has passable odds of Dodging into base contact with a Possessed Guijia against anything it might try while being able to wait outside of template range and not taking up a whole lot of list real estate. Looks like I'll have to remember to not bring the Squalo against lists threatening both POS and Guided attacks.
If the possessed Guijia moves more than 3" away from the Monk it can't reach it with the Dodge anymore. Doesn't work like Engage anymore where you teleport to the ARO target.
Oblivion is only B2. But yes, it could afford to be toned down. I don't think the balance is quite right on the programs. Right now, WIP13 HD vs WIP13 BTS6 HI you'll land IMM-B 45.67% and ISO 46.77% (WIP15 Hacker is 55. 01%). At BTS3 your more likely to land IMM-B and at BTS9 ISO. Carbonite at B2 DAM16 AP and Oblivion at B2 DAM16 Normal drops a WIP13 vs WIP13 BTS6 exchange to IMM-B on 46.77% and ISO on 38.35% (WIP15 Hacker is 45.38%). That feels more appropriate to their effects: particularly when you consider that with a Tinbot -3 it's down to 21% to ISO the target in active and still 28.58% to ISO a BTS9 target. For that Stun program, B1 DAM16 Stun +3/-3 WIP makes it a coin toss (40.4% vs 36.2%) in a FTF with WIP13BTS6 HD vs WIP13 BTS0 KHD through the HD's Repeater using Oblivion. At B1 DAM16 Stun +3 WIP those numbers shift to 53.91 vs 26.45. Honestly, I'm coming around to "just remove Firewall from Repeaters" as the easiest step. It so massively skews the advantage to the side that has the Repeater down (also removing it is also largely a buff to Reactive Hacking). It also makes it easier to balance programs because if you make a program that's designed to work through a Firewall ends up unreasonably powerful without it.
That doesn't bypass ECM. ECM doesn't work like Mimmetism, ECM works like CC Attack (-3). CC Attack (-3) applies to the target of CC Attack irrespective of whether they FTF the Trooper which CC Attacked them. Equally, the Trooper affected by ECM (ie. the attacker who targeted the TAG) takes the -3/6 on all rolls. Because the TAG is affected by the Template it is targeted by the Attack and ECM applies.
This is actually a pretty neat idea, though I'd want some kind of mechanic to get Firewall access outside of the current binary Tinbots. Even Fairy Dust for Hackers would work, given that EVO devices tend to be really vulnerable to KHDs Firewall or no. ...Darn, this is completely accurate. It doesn't even require the TAG to be the main target. Plan Palbot is go again. Thanks for reading the rules!
Mary and Danavas both get +1B Oblivion, Danavas is also available to WhiteCo as a merc. I was under the impression that this bullet point of impact template weapons would make ECM non functional, as the main target for templates is what determines what MODs apply. "All MODs applied to the attacker’s Roll are determined by the Main Target. As stated above, this Roll will be compared separately against the Rolls of each enemy Ttrooper affected by the Template." "Ttrooper" spelling mistake courtesy of CB. Or @ijw maybe.
And in BS Attack(Guided) we have this: During the Active Turn, they may perform a BS Attack against a target in Targeted State, without requiring LoF. They will perform a BS Roll with a +6 MOD, ignoring all other MODs except those imposed by ECM or TinBots to Guided Attacks. Which seems to imply that those are the only relevant MODs, and makes no mention of Main Targets. This one may need to go on the Rules thread.
