People get defensive about things, but sometimes they shouldn't. The problem is that you have Nomad players who are arguing that the hacking rules are fine, and their profiles are fine, in fact they want other hackers buffed to the levels that Jazz is at so they have options. That's atrocious and should definitely be criticized.
Most Nomads in this thread have agreed that Guided could do with being toned down. What they disagree with is that relatively expensive, relatively fragile troopers that impose states that can be Reset out of in ARO are actually as much or a problem as you make out. Personally I think: 1. Guided should read: "During the Active Turn, they may perform a BS Attack against a target in Targeted State, without requiring LoF. They will perform a BS Roll, ignoring all other MODs except those imposed by Targetted, ECM or TinBots to Guided Attacks." ECM should then be adjusted by +3. IE ECM: Guided (-6) should become ECM: Guided (-3) and ECM: Guided (-3) should be removed from all profiles that have it right now. This should have no change in Profile costs. That's a blanket -3 nerf to Guided which will push it to generally inefficient vs anything that Dodges it on higher than 10s. 2. Dep Reps should be S1 again. This makes them MUCH harder to hide, particularly on roofs. 3. Deactivators should be: This provides a solution vs Dep Reps that is relatively efficient vs aggressively deployed Deployables but relatively inefficient vs primarily defensively deployed Deployables. 4. Jammers should lose Disposable. 5. Ariadna should pick up Jammers, potentially through an ITS prize non-Marker state midfield Mercenary. Having Dep Reps (but not Minelayer) would be cool and would fit well as a Wardriver trained InfoWar specialist. 6. The balance between Oblivion and Carbonite should be looked at, potentially they should be swapped for DAM and Ammo. This would rebalance InfoWar by opening up more play in it to all factions while simultaneously providing easier access to better counters AND reducing the impact of the most egregious aspect (Spotlight being an existential risk).
No. I was saying that Jazz should be nerfed. But CJC with only Valerya as a practical Hacking choice HAS WORSE HACKING THAN SEVERAL PANO SECTORIALS while simultaneously also shooting worse than those sectorials. So if you nerf Jazz heavily then you need to balance that nerf elsewhere. A more moderate nerf (lose FTO, make Billie compulsory and add bloat to Billie so he's ~10pts) would probably be fine without compensation.
Not to be rude sir, but you literally cherry picked a single stat (BTS9) as if it was a massive mic drop proving me wrong two posts ago. I have given specific examples (like Anathematic vs Jazz) but only to counter ridiculous blanket statements like Nomads have 'absolute supremacy' which the example proves they objectively do not. I actually agree Jazz is an auto pick and it would be better if she wasn't. It'd be nice if sectorials like CJC in the hacking faction could still be relatively good at hacking though. Like if she gets nerfed maybe something else gets made moderately good and comparable to where she ends up. But then there's a lot of things in a lot of factions that could use that treatment. Jazz is hardly the most oppressively OP thing in the game, even if she is too good even on an internal balance metric. I just picked the Anathematic bc it's a piece I know having played it. Combined have a fair few good hackers though, even if they don't quite have the ecosystem Nomads do. They have a lot of other great things Nomads don't however. I haven't seen Nomads win any local tournaments since N4 though, so I hardly think they are dominant in the way your comments might suggest. And I dunno what you call durable, but in my world 1W Arm 1 no defensive tech isn't it.
I also feel it's worth mentioning that they are, bar none, the best mobility and objective faction in the game, and this should definitely be accounted for when discussing a rebalance. They may hit on BS 12, but Corregidor can put a gun or Repeater anywhere almost trivially.
@Hachiman Taro i picked a single stat because it's a counter to your argument that Nomad hackers have worse stats than others Combined Army and ALEPH ones. That's all I need to show your argument is baseless. ARM is hardly relevant for a hacker who doesn't have to come out of their hidey hole to target things, and it's disingenuous to call hackers like that "fragile." You're just arguing against facts.
So when you cherry pick it's ok, and all the other stats of those hackers that are relevant and better don't count because [insert something]. Got it. Also, so what you are suggesting is that you might not auto win an engagement against a model on the vector it's specifically designed to be good at, and you might have to play skillfully to engage it in the way it is extremely vulnerable. The horror. CB should give your faction say, a model you could deploy right in its deployment zone that can just stab it in the face or shotgun it with excellent odds to succeed. I'm sure they will realise your chosen faction should always have a better chance regardless of your decisions at some point, because it's so obvious :)
I'm not cherry picking, you made a very broad, untrue statement, which was trivially disproven. Nah, you're the one who's suggesting that certain non-Killer hackers should be nigh-unassailable to KHD's. So don't get it twisted, *you're* the one who's arguing that a specific unit type (KHDs) should be bad at the vector they're meant to be good at. We've got people arguing that "KHDs shouldn't be used to attack hackers, just to complete objectives and cybermask" which is a very wrong "should" statement. Get off your shit. I just don't want a faction that is "Nomads, but worse at hacking because we can't hurt the Nomad players' power fantasy."
Guys, sorry, have been long gone from the forums and may be missing something.. But we're just talking about hackers in a vacuum, right? Without considering any counters? I mean, if hackers are an issue, why not take Combat Jump/Parachutist (Dep. Zone) units, Impersonators etc? Deploy them and deal with other troops while you're at it; maybe get lucky and find a blind spot and get some great unopposed shots while you're at it? Hackers can't even stop drop troops anymore, you got all the chances with your opponent not being able to do much about it.
Ahhh, I see, how dumb of me to forget that the actual problem is that there is actually is a faction that you think is better than yours at something! Too much for a man of your talents to be expected to deploy your uniquely deadly assassin next to an enemy and stab the obvious problem them in the face first order. Your things must simply be better than the things your opponent has, in the same way, always. How about, and this is a crazy idea I know but bear with me, CB give CA WIP 16 hackers, with multiple wounds (just in case)?! That's even better than Interventors! Oh no but that won't work because you trivially proved to yourself CA Hackers can't have better stats by saying 'BTS 9' but not as a cherry pick, obviously. I'll think on it some more, it's hard to keep up with you.
Pan-o has the best hacker in the game, bts9 and can be boosted with fairy dust. It also has two wounds and will kick a speculo on its arse 50% of the time in cc.
Onyx for that last part. But it's only the Aspect hackers who kept their free goodies that put them remotely on part with Nomad hacking. No, how dumb of you to think you could fail to make a coherent argument and then mock me without getting scorn thrown back at you. You don't respect me *and* you have a more shaky grasp on the game than me, why should I respect you? Because the person in question is going to be in the front 4" of their deployment zone... you might deploy like an idiot, but not everyone does. Never said that. A KHD does not have the same role as a hacking device, which is something you should learn. I just want a KHD to be better than a regular HD at its role, which in many cases it is not. Depends on the situation. Vs Oblivion? I'd rather be the Interventor. And if I'm behind a firewall? Definitely better to be the Interventor. Not what I proved. I proved that Nomad hackers don't have worse stats than ALEPH and Combined Army hackers. Which is true.
Totally agree with this, seems like an excellent set of solutions for the problems that have currently made Infinity rather uninspiring for me. A like didn't seem sufficient, and I would hate for a post like this to get subsumed in the ocean of negativity and bullshit this thread is becoming, so I figured quoting it in brief would be a good way to broadcast it.
Jammers in a vacuum were fine in N3. Hecklers and Zulu Cobras were around long enough to prove that. Ghazi were fucked up, but their profiles were fixed. N3 Jammers on N4 Ghazi profiles would not be an issue.
There's a lot of voices in here. Some aren't considering counters, some are, some think that even with alternatives and counters included that the Hacking gulf is a bit too wide. Some particular Sectorials also lack the appropriate counters altogether, making the Hacking divide into a serious concern for them. It's a big topic at the moment that seems to be impacting a lot of people's enjoyment of the game, and there's a lot of dissenting opinions on exactly what to do about it.
