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Give MO the Swiss Guard

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by QueensGambit, Mar 12, 2021.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    So, I really like what they did with the MO fluff. No longer a bunch of knights from different military orders fighting together for no reason, we now know that the Church has its own army. The infantry backbone of the Church's army is the Crosiers, and presumably also the Trinitarians, neither of whom are members of any military orders. And the Church's army is supplemented by knights and squires (Order Sergeants) from the various military orders. Awesome!

    So, obviously, the Swiss Guard needs to be in MO!!!! Like, the Swiss Guards are the actual armed forces of the actual Catholic church IRL. If anyone belongs in the Church's army, it's them.

    (Also they need resculpts with halberds.)
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I liked the separation of "The knights go on crusade, the Swiss Guard defends the Neovatican (which is on Neoterra)."
     
  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    The Swiss guard were technically just mercenaries corps paid by the vatican for protection. Now specifically they are an arm of the Swiss military that is seconded to the vatican for protection.

    I don't know if in the infinity fluff they are also a direct arm of the church or if they traditional role of being a seconded unit is still retained. But I recall a blurb about the Swiss being trained in the pano military academies
     
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  4. SpectralOwl

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    It's even stranger than that; apparently fluffwise they have to transfer out of the Swiss Guard and serve in another branch after training until earning distinction there before they can transfer back as full Swiss Guards, and the NeoVatican specifically loans them to PanO Special Operations.
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    This is what CB exactly wrote:
    The Holy See has a special cooperation agreement with the PanOceanian Military Complex. Swiss Guards are elite soldiers who defend the safety of the Holy Mother Church and the papal seat in San Pietro of Neoterra, but who also perform special operations at the behest of the PanOceanian military. The Swiss Guard has maintained the old tradition of recruiting its members only from among the inhabitants of the old Swiss cantons. Recruits are subjected to demanding training, after which they must serve a year in auxiliary duty. Afterwards, if they wish to continue their career in the Guard and access the tactical branch, they must request leave and be transferred to other regular units of the Military Complex. They cannot be reinstated into the Swiss Guard until they have served in crisis areas and earned several honorable mentions for their record sheet, which is why, once reinstated, all Guards have the rank of sub officer. The Swiss Guard now forms the (assimilated) Special Action Group of the PanOceanian Heavy Infantry, and at their disposal is the most advanced of all human-conceived military technology. Adding to their security functions, the Swiss Guard also executes direct action, assault, capture of key strategic positions and interdiction operations. In combat, their orders usually take them to the most dangerous positions in the most violent missions: such is the responsibility their history and tradition entail.
     
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  6. Jimneysweep

    Jimneysweep Member

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    "The Swiss Guard now forms the (assimilated) Special Action Group of the PanOceanian Heavy Infantry, and at their disposal is the most advanced of all human-conceived military technology."

    wouldn't it be nice if this was reflected in the unit profile, especially for almost the cost of a TAG...
     
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  7. SpectralOwl

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    I'll at least give it credit for being 2 points of BS and a solid -3 modifier over anything Ariadna can field and not even the CA get quite as good as the Swiss when it comes to simple application of violence.
     
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  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The Swiss Guard sports top notch aiming calculators (BS 15!), TO camo and Super Heavy Infantry grade armor on a Heavy Infantry size. I don't know how this isn't the "most advanced of all human-conceived military technology".
    Only PanO and YJ can do this. Even Aleph and CA don't do such things.
    TO Camo isn't trivial, and it is at disposal mostly to light units because they only have to carry the weight of their weapons, ammos and the TO camo device. It's much more difficult to put it on an already heavy gear, even if the wearer is assisted, because the assistance has its own weight. Plus, unlike a light trooper, if you want to make a Heavy Infantry stealthy, you have to implement noise-dampeners, which aren't without weight, again.
     
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  9. Jimneysweep

    Jimneysweep Member

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    I'm not criticizing the Swiss guard as a bad profile, it's a fantastic unit and a lot of fun to play. But, much like with a lot of PanO, the stories don't match up with reality and that's always a bit disappointing. The KoJ have 6-2 ARM5 BTS9 and BS14, if you consider the +1 BS that the Swiss have is because of their training, then how do you explain what is going on with the armours there? If the Swiss have access to all the cutting edge tech PanO has to offer, why do they only take HMG's and Multi-rifles into the field? surely PanO has some interesting and experimental weapons that the Swiss could make us of?

    The stat line may or may not reflect the "most advanced of all human-conceived military technology" aspect of the unit, but statlines don't really make for fun or interesting game play. That's where my issue is with that description.

    Edit: Also, it certainly sounds like it should exist in both MO and NCA
     
    #9 Jimneysweep, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  10. SpectralOwl

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    It's integrated more closely with the Neoterran command structure and doctrine. Where the Church and the standard military command work together, you get Vanilla.
     
  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Well, you must know that above BS13, either you have excellent aiming assistance, or you have implants/genetic modifications. BS15 means cutting edge aiming calculation and weapons of the best quality to match it. And outside a Feuerbach and maybe the MULTI Marksman rifle, HMG and Missile Launchers are dreadful weapons on a such platform. And you must recall that NCA is an army that loves One-trick-poney units. More than any other army in the Human Sphere, NCA loves to play chess. Even Bolts, which seems to be odd as multipupose profiles have one task : punch through. So, yeah, Swiss Guards don't need feuerbachs because ORCs and Uhlans already have those weapons and they use it wonderfully. But compared to Hexa and Bulleteers, the Swiss Guard brings a higher caliber threat on the battlefield.

    EDIT: and no, they don't mesh well in MO, because they cost a lot and they are essentially one-trick-poneys and that's not what MO are all for, outside of few units. MO is more about all-purpose units hard to put on a bad foot but not over-the-top efficient.
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Citation? I can't find this anywhere in their wikipedia entry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard). It says that since around 1910-1921 they have to be Swiss citizens, and have completed basic training with the Swiss Armed Forces, but I can't find anything in there suggesting that they're seconded from the Swiss military. It looks to me like they're a branch of the Vatican.

    I've never understood that about the fluff. If NCA only defends Neoterra, does that mean that every time we play a game with NCA, it represents an attack on Neoterra? Neoterra gets attacked an awful lot, if so.

    Anyway, I definitely agree that NCA should also keep the Swiss Guard, but their natural role is fighting alongside Crosiers and Trinitarians! Per Wikipedia, "The unit's security mission is assisted by the Corps of Gendarmerie of Vatican City."
     
  13. Jimneysweep

    Jimneysweep Member

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    That's a very good point! seems like the Swiss is exactly where it should be then, from both a fluff and game design perspective. Unless you run a campaign where the Neo-Vatican is under siege of course.

    I understand that game balance is the major explanation for most of this. But it feels like a missed opportunity for the Swiss to not have some more interesting profiles with unique and interesting tech that bring something different to the table like the description of the unit suggests, Instead of some "BS15 means it has super good aiming built in" handwavium.
     
  14. Pinky

    Pinky Well-Known Member

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    I think a Swiss would be really useful in MO and I would definitely use one at least sometimes. It's a source of top tier ARO and a potential Tag killer with the ML, especially in coordination with Panzerfausts. It would cover the get out of DZ role and mesh well with aggressive Teuton links. I'd love to have them in the sectorial.
    But, it is what it is and MO still has the best Tag in the game and, for those who like him more, the KotHS HMG.
     
  15. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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  16. Vijel

    Vijel Member

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    Or you are Margot Berthier who is an unmoddified human beeing who has BS14 with only a simple scope. :D

    But it is not handwavium. The stats are part of the unit and represent the fluff in the same way as the special rules.
    Sure it is not as flashy as tons of special rules but a BS15 HI is pretty rare and only the most elite units with the most advanced tech got it so in my eyes it is a pretty good representation of the best technologie Pan O has to offer.
    Best military technologie doesn't have to translate to funny and interesting game mechanics but to most efficient unit for what it is sopposed to do and i think the Swiss Guard is still just that.

    Yeah but that is the definition of the real life Swiss Guard. The Swiss Guard in Infinity lore altought based on the historical unit has its own definition and agenda. There it only states that they "defend the safety of the Holy Mother Church and the papal seat in San Pietro of Neoterra" and "perform special operations at the behest of the PanOceanian military." For the first part you can play them in NCO and for the second part you can play them in vanilla PanO.
     
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  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    TO Camo on an ARM 5 heavy infantry is extremely advanced technology. Literally it was Yu Jing's big super awesome thing they developed until PanO stole the tech.
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    This! Just think how imbalanced a guy like this would be in a FPS. The guy is nearly invisible (like camouflaged Elites in Halo or Ghosts in Starcraft, make your choice), you have to hit him 2-3 times at least with anti-material sniper rounds to take him down and this guy has the best aimbot of the game. And if he is moving around, you only hear him when he fires his gun.
     
    #18 Ayadan, Mar 12, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  19. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Don't make me reinstall Neotokyo
     
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  20. Shrooms

    Shrooms Well-Known Member

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    It might be fun to get a plasma rifle profile for the Swiss.
    That really would be the best tech. And as others have said, the ODD was originally stolen too, so it’s not like we are talking ‘natively developed tech only’.
    Aleph have one, so it would be a nice nod to the time frame moving on.
    It would fit with NCAs single focus on ‘do shooting from DZ well’, while also providing a new toy.
     
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