Those are good odds as far as Infinity goes, like those are better odds than most HI core linked HMGs have trying to fight their way past linked AROs so if you think they're unreliable I have really bad news for you. Remember one of the big factors in F2F isn't just your chance to succeed but also the risk factor in how likely your opponent is to succeed, and Jazz has very good odds there at the Nagas failing to cause impact, which means she's further emboldened by being a safe bet to take a couple of cracks to get rid of both of them if necessary. You are also making the assumption that Jazz is launching the pitcher. Nomads have the options in any sectorial to fire them up to 40" on 12s with Tsyklons, from personal observations IRL, very common in practice. As far as that particular example goes, killing off two of your opponent's camo specialists, then gutting say an ORC pointman out of a link and making it toothless or stealing a TAG or so on, yeah, it can very much be worth the order expenditure to kill/neuter these models without risking any over extension on your part. That's about 100, maybe 100+ points of your opponent dead. You've killed a third of his army value at very low risk and no over extension, that can be a serious uphill battle to get back into the game from. He's like the Infinity version of a Flat Earther, it's fascinating sometimes.
A Core-linked Tsyklon doesn't need to leave its DZ, but I catch your point. IMO Guided/Oblivion+Pitcher as a combo for assassination is less of a balance problem than the options we've had for years, but the follow-on issues from having a Repeater in your DZ or near midfield and an enemy you can't realistically fight with almost anything in your army is more severe. Anything Hackable can't get close enough to Jazz and friends to remove her conventionally and a lot of unhackables just take too many orders to fix the problem for the game to be recoverable, and all this for an investment that sits under 100pts total in Hacker and accessories. It's like a Kamau Sniper that can ignore Total Cover, and it's been an infuriating gear check for all my listbuilding thus far.
It's not a 17 vs 14, @fatherboxx Jazz has a Firewall -6, so it's 1. 2x17 vs 1x11 and 2. 1x17 vs 1x11 Nagas make their saves at dice rolls of 16+ (DAM 15 vs BTS 0) Jazz makes any potential saves at dice rolls of 6+ (DAM 11 vs BTS 6) It's hard to find a scenario using BS Weapons which is comparable because the odds the Nagas face are so terrible not least because you've sacrificed so much opportunity cost by deploying so many of your points defensively and so many of your infiltrators defensively, that even if you luck out (and it'll take luck), the Corregidor player is ahead and can likely have a Daktari get her up for round 2.
As someone who mainly plays Spiral Corps/Tohaa I don't really have a horse in this hacking debate, but if you're using 60 points of Nagas to MAYBE stop 18-19 points of Jazz... Just seems like not the greatest of plans to me.
Firewalls dont stack, so it is -3 from repeater or Evader, the only firewall -6 is naked specialized Mobile Brigada which I'd advise not to run in anything because Transmission Matrix is not a mission anymore
The Hacker, Boarding Shotgun, and one of the Multi Rifle/LFT profiles all come with the -6 Tinbot. You see them in fireteams pretty often due to Wildcard.
Nah, those odds are still rather bad and brute forcing hard ARO pieces is certainly not the base line to compare things against. They are basically the most difficult thing to successfully tackle head on in the game. Generally, you'll have much more favourable odds when leveraging unit strength properly against most other targets. Then again, if we are here arguing about whether or not taking two Naga KHD is sufficient to merely delay this setup to the point where it is not efficient anymore, something is definitely not right with the interaction in general. That Tsyklon also makes it a great deal more reliable due to its weird combination of climbing plus and pitcher + X-Visor, so I can totally see the issue there. It's able to minimise the impact of terrain and range, both of which somewhat keep this in check for the usual pitcher units.
It's pretty much a sidetrack going into the question of whether it's a good idea to defend your important target from pitcher-spotlight by deploying two Naga KHDs around the target instead of spread out in the midfield where they'd rather be. The odds end up being something like 50% to wound one of the nagas and 60% to wound the other (I've lost track of the exact numbers). That's an 80% overall chance to wound one naga. Even if the Nomad player now decides not to keep fighting the nagas... he's only spent two orders on this plan (one to throw the pitcher, one to fight the nagas). He's killed one Naga (it will die at the end of the turn), and caused the other to deploy out of position. He's got a repeater down which his opponent will have to spend orders dealing with. That was a fantastic use of two orders, and he can spend the rest of his turn accomplishing other things. Sure the SAA player "succeeded" in protecting his TAG or lt or whatever Jazz had planned to go after, but it wasn't a viable defense.
Well to be fair, that actually does sound very reasonable and something that's commmon/easy to pull off. I hate to admit it but PanO and Onyx is the armies I own where I'm at my weakest, simply because I own them as pet projects and my experience with them is nowhere near the amount I have with Nomads + Sectorials, Yu Jing + Sectorials, Ariadna and now recently I've been one trick ponying Dahshat. Regarding the bit about Nomads, It would seems that I slightly misremember what you wrote so I stand corrected on that part.
So this is basically the argumentum ad grammaticam fallacy. I mean, I didn't expect much considering the mocking tone I had but in my defence, it was kinda hard to take you seriously when you started ranting about alien speak and how people clearly didn't play the game, while giving objectively terrible advice to solve a problem, which wouldn't actually work in practice and would not only kill your much valued specialist but also waste him in a DZ, rather than doing actual work. Regarding the point about hacking, you do not appear to understand the issue because it seems you're somehow under the mistaken assumption that the Corregidor player is actually "crafting" a hacking list, which isn't true. Corregidor is simply just good at hacking, while simultaneously being able to bring what he would normally bring. Like why would you NOT bring 2 Morans? Why would you not stick Jazz into the full core you're bringing anyway? Why would you not bring your REM's who also happens to bring Pitchers anyway? If you had the opportunity to cost efficiently put your opponent into LoL or cripple a massive attack piece that would otherwise swallow massive amounts of orders, while having zero risks to yourself... Why exactly is that player an 'idiot' then..? Do you suffer from a cripling fear of winning or something? It's weird that you keep going on about people not playing, while you sound like a person who haven't played a single game of N4 to be honest.
The past couple pages have some extraordinary comments from boxx covering this topic and others including the impossibility of probability...read 'em man, treat yoself.
To go back to @Zewrath 's post where he summed up a lot of the issues, I agree with a lot of what you're saying. The hacking ecosystem is fucked up and we've been going round and round about that. ARO is slanted very heavily towards these optimized fireteam pieces (Kamau MSR etc) and that constrains the game space. Camo is still very strong, despite what some people are complaining about with respect to Ariadna; I think that complaining about Ariadna is wrongheaded. The sixth sense hackers/fireteams are something that I think should stay, however; I remember in N2 when the solution to basically everything could be "smoke + shoot." If hacking is made less oppressive, 6th sense hackers wouldn't be as big of a deal, and if fireteam aros are toned the fuck down, we wouldn't need to rely on smoke/white noise to beat them. With respect to those decisions people think are questionable... I would love to see a video talking about what the designers' intent behind these changes are. The ASOIAF game by CMON is going through a revision right now and the two guys in charge of it have been pretty open with the community about what they're trying to do, it's been great. But there's this ivory tower barrier here, and it's problem.
Yeah, at a certain point you've just handed your opponent the ability to safely remove more of your army. Killing two midfield specialists and disabling an important attack piece is oftentimes a pretty good use of turn 1. The idea that Jazz finding KHDs in her repeater net during active turn as anything other than more victims to kill is laughable.
We are honestly trying to keep this tread open, so please refrain from personal attacks and keep the discussion civil however much you disagree with each other. Everybody involved considered warned.
Jazz behind the tinbot is totally capable of dealing with them effectively. Doesn't seem like bad odds to me. It's also extremely low risk to her.
