Basically what I'm looking for would be lists that perform well for a given scenario enough to motivate playing ISS over other sectorials that have similar shortcomings and strengths. With TTS I have discovered I am no longer miniature-locked into what I can reasonably find time and energy to build and put paint on, so any non-Pan-O sectorial is game (I just don't generally like a setting's Blue Boys, be they Pan-O, Ultramarines, or Cygnar). If you can skew the sectorial in unexpected and hilarious ways that's an added benefit, of course, but I don't expect nor want skews to work better than a "normal" setup except for as a surprise and to some extent you can with ISS (though the range of missions where a list containing 3x Dakini HMG, 3x Husong and Lunah would do well in is limited)
I think you're right that there's no equivalent to the Su Jian in either of those sectorials, but you also start your description of sectorial armies by stating that it's common for them to have over-tuned core units that people are likely to build around. I think that the Su Jian definitely qualifies for this, and your cross-army comparison here starts off by instructing you to build ISS lists that leave one of the headlining units completely off the table. It still has good stats, it still has good weapons, it still has a kind of amazing interaction between NWI and Remote Presence. It seems to me like a lot of ISS lists could be made better by adding a Su Jian or 3.
Also, do people think Wu Ming are bad now? There used to be some really solid lower order count ISS lists based around Wu Ming fireteams in N3.
Challenge accepted, but this is theorycraft so take it with a wagonload of salt (haha jk this is the YJ forums salt is the local currency) A Core in group 1 plus orders for a secondary specialist if anyone from that Core survives round 1. Two options for Haris in group 2 (Zhanying or Deva), so you can split one up in the midfield and form the second, or Gui Feng can swap to backfill the two Zhanyings if your LT goes off solo to use those LT orders and you have something else in mind for the Deva and Dakini. The job of the Hsien/Zhanying Haris is to get to the console and then deal with any hard targets, at long range with the B2 ML or medium/short range with MULTI or Breaker ammo and MSV. Integrated Tinbot to cover the hacker and protect the HI. Two specialists, 7 SWC used, two MSV2 hunters and core smoke, and a premier CC and midfielder dragged along behind a swarm of chain rifles with two spares for backfilling. Hacker with native Sixth Sense means sneaking up on the Zhanying Haris is tricky. The Pheasant is there for a Tac Aware COC heavy weapon with stealth who can complete classifieds mid to late game (and duo with Gui Feng if you like). If you lose most of group 1 you can command token the (presumably alive) Crane into group 2 without having to bump anyone else out first. If you want Sensor and extra Mad Traps you can swap the Zhanying ML out for a Zhanying Sensor Minelayer, same points but then you're "only" using 5.5 SWC, which is why I opted for the ML. Mindwipe I guess? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 7 4 CELESTIAL GUARD Monitor Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) CRANE AGENT (X Visor) Spitfire, Nanopulser(+1B) ( ) / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) CSU (Specialist Operative) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 11) GROUP 2 7 1 HSIEN (Lieutenant) MULTI Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (+1 | 53) ZHÀNYING (Hacker, Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0.5 | 25) ZHÀNYING Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1.5 | 23) XI ZHUANG Combi Rifle, Light Flamethrower(+1B), Flash Pulse, Madtraps / Pistol, CC Weapon, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (0 | 21) DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 33) DAKINI Tacbot Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 21) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Tactical Awareness) Red Fury / Breaker Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-6). (1 | 31) 7 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
No, I consider the Su-Jian decent. Intellectually it's a Mowang that trades Mimetism for mobility and needs to be supported by long range firepower to move up. I haven't felt like I have needed either when last I played vanilla, though, I should probably test the Su-Jian out in N4 and see how it does in an environment with significantly more repeaters and high-ARM enemies. Unless it surprises me, however, I'd not call it over-tuned, I'd call it a solid choice given how it still is very costly. There's a lot of factors that goes into whether something is bad, mediocre, solid, or over-tuned (if we put it on a 5 grade scale where the lowest tier "useless" doesn't exist in this game) I, personally, don't think Wu Ming are bad, but everything is a comparison to everything else and it is inarguable that Wu Ming didn't benefit from the sweeping changes to HI like (edit: as much as) all the other HI did (except Sun Tze, Kriza Borac and Qiang Gao). I've always found them mediocre, heavily dependent on above all else the HMG surviving with a decent chance of surviving attacks, but given how they eat up your list resources your list tended to grind to a halt if they got stuck. While they gained EM 'nades, they also lost the +3 range band, fair's fair, but to me they're stuck in the mediocre quality. Let's see... SWC and points are a means to an end and not the end goal. As someone would say; it's not how many you have, but how you use them. Hsien is a tough nut with MSV2, no doubt about it, and what JSA or HB would do is use Yara or Kempei to emulate the MSV2 shooting but displace the toughnuttage to a secondary unit. This both splits the burden and makes the MSV2 shooting more vulnerable to lucky crits; it's a compromise. Muyib or Govad are reasonably similar to Zhanying in practical performance, but as long as we're not talking about a Zhanying that carries around a MadTrap the Hassassins will probably out-perform the Zhanying by a bit more than the 1 and 4 points more they cost would have you believe. The backup in the Deva for MSV2 does make it very hard for Hassassin to keep pace in the MSV2 game and compromises have to be made in this respect, and Xi is a dark horse. My personal experience with the Pheasant has never led me to believe that it should be used actively, so you'll forgive me if I don't try to emulate. I won't argue that your list isn't interesting, because it does seem very interesting if I can make a few adjustments to it for my own preferences (such as removing the Zhanying Missile Launcher because I generally don't like low burst weapons and making a 10-order main group because I usually find that works better for my order expenditure). Very light on specialists and reactive units and with Chain of Command being a liability in Decapitation, list looks like it wants to play Rescue or one of the zone control missions. Here's an estimate I came up with: ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 6 4 4 YARA HADDAD (Strategic Deployment) AP Marksman Rifle / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 28) GHULAM (NCO) Rifle, Grenade Launcher, Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 15) GHULAM (Doctor [+3]) Rifle, Light Shotgun ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 15) ASAWIRA (Lieutenant) AP Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) GHULAM Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) AVICENNA Combi Rifle, Flash Pulse / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 27) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 6) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 5) GROUP 2 5 1 MUYIB (Tactical Awareness, X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 34) GOVAD (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 26) GOVAD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 30) FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) LASIQ (BS Attack [+1 Dam], X Visor) Viral Rifle, Light Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 26) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army While the list has fewer orders, the Muttawiah's were chosen to closest resemble the tight-corner guards that Kuang Shi emulate - the compromise here is that Muttas don't generate regular orders but are also not valuable for order generation nor buffing the smoke launcher. The MSV2 was put in the core simply because it is possible in Hassassin and I see no reason not to put the primary source of smoke as close to the primary source of MSV as possible. With doctors included (one of which fills the role of the CSU, albeit unable to Duo with Asawira, while also being able to fill the Core team), the list has regenerative qualities that the ISS list lacks. Farzan trades the Pheasant's attack potential for guarantees against being taken out and the Muyib gets to inherit both the Deva's Spitfire role and the Pheasant's secondary attacker role. Govads with their MSV1 is a compromise to get the Deva's MSV into the Fireteam, shifting it around on their weapons a bit, and the Govad Hacker's Veteran status is a compromise where the Tinbot's protection against Killer Hacking is traded for immunity versus the strongest anti-hacker hack in game. Lasiq, finally, and unfortunately, is a single unit incapable of making a complete Haris the way the Dakini, Xi and Deva can form one if the Hsien's team loses a member. It's using X-visor to increase the range of the Viral Rifle to better emulate the mid-range nature of the ISS list. All in all I think it's a decent compromise with one exception - no damned HMG. I would probably need to mull it over a bit if I were to be forced to use the ISS list as a template for either JSA and HB and make harder compromises. Most likely the missile launcher would need to be regarded to a HMG, even though this lurches the list slightly more to long ranged than the ISS one does, in my opinion. I do not think the melee capability of the ISS list need to be more than acknowledged. It's a very difficult advantage to push and the risk is that trying to do so will result in the opponent simply pushing back harder. The important melee elements in both lists are Asawira and Crane, whom are evenly matched in that regard. So, how close did it end up you think and how do you find the compromises?
What ISS really really needs is an ARO presence. You can't play N4 without a way to soak your opponent's Orders, either by opposition or attrition. Since raw numbers of bodies (AVA8 KS) are not an option anymore a replacement is needed. There are a bunch of tools in the game that do the trick: capable Marker AROs, ideally S12+ TO MRT/ML capable defensive links, ideally a capable 2W ARO piece (HI ML/MSR/FB/Sukeul ML/Gao Rael SR...) for your LI Core or a very capable sqiushy option (Grenzer/Kamau/Bolt/Frontovnik/buffed Dakini...) Perimeter/Minelayer Marker shellgame with multple Decoys (formerly Ambush Camo) and obscured Mines passive Repeater nets ZOC AROs, Jammers, Phacking additional bodies via Peripherals/Posthumans/Puppets... DTWs across the majority of your whole army Smoke across the majority of your whole army Out of these options ISS has: Madtraps (not even bad ones, but ticking a single box isn't gonna cut it). Means they're weak as hell on the defensive side of things. Doesn't help they also lagg behind on the damage output side, lacking a TAG (read DAM16 MHMG access) altogether, being restricted to Hsien + Smoke as far as heavy MODs and long range go and a noteable lack of anti armor. I like the close range game, I like the utility Skills and Equipment, but that's the frills missing a dress to be attached to.
They stopped being attractive after more and more mixed links came into the game. They used to be one of the more cost effective pain train links you could make because they were cheap compared to most other HI links, now they're just kinda expensive Zuyongs that don't get TacAw. The Tinbot and HMG profiles cost the exact same as their Zuyong clones, but the Zuyong profiles also have TacAw attached to them so all the Wu Ming is basically trading +1 PH/ARM for -1 order and shittier MOV stats. Their last gimmick was accurate specfire but Grenade Launchers got nerfed so that kinda went out the window too. Basically like alot of things in ISS they're something that was good in their era but has fallen behind the power/mechanics creep. Not entirely unexpected for an old sectorial, but also disappointing that far less care was put into bringing them back up to speed by CB compared to the attention paid to Hassassins in their N4 mini overhaul. That said they didn't get assfucked quite as badly as USARF but that's a hell of a low bar.
To me, from a outsider's view, the main Icons of ISS are: Penal troops, best ilustrated by Kuang Shi (Wu Ming are less unique) "Imperial" troops (Hsien) "Made to order" Troops (Su Jian, Sun Tze) Police Troops & infiltrators: Kanren, Ninja, bounty hunters, possibly Bao (but these are "iconical" in fluff, much less in how much do they show up) Aleph's payment to the 2nd nation that gives more support to the AI. So, first thing: Kuang Shi troops. We know almost no one uses the BSG profile (not bad... but more than twice as costly than the chain rifle), and with the change to Impetuous they are now simply corner guards or sacrificial troops, so remove the Fireteam option. I would remove the need to place a Celestial guard to control them, and assume any Lt profile "carries such device". Then, limit the AVA to 6,or even 4. It's not like you are going to see many 7KS + controller + 2 Su Jian in group 1, despite being about 152-156pts. Secondly, Hsien linkability: like a Zhanying. So you can have a pain train of Wu Mings + Hsien... Also, giving the Hsien NCO or Tac Aware would go in line with a troop that is part of the Imperial Family (in fact the guy should be Veteran... it's not that he is very experienced, but that he knows how to give orders... or making sure those around him know what is expected from them). Third: police units. Bao, Bounty hunters, maybe even Lunah linking together. The Baos need a redesign from the bottom to the head, and maybe not even showing up in vanilla. Pheasants should be moved to infiltration duty, Aleph support: Maybe add Arjunas to the list, Devas should be wildcards (they are advisors after all) but have their profiles available a little more trimmed down (no Deva Lt, for example). Then, I would make the agents more in the line of police troops, infiltrators, disguised people, etc... Not necessarily Impersonators (but the Kanren has that duty in the fluff, among the scum of YJs lower rungs, I think), and giving the BSG profiles a Pitcher or Deployable Repeater would not be a great problem. I mean, the ISS is the "secret state police". That means having intelligence on the terrain, infiltrating the enemy, etc..., and in the end they look more like a bunch of police officers drafted by a big shot with some conscripted delinquents and his shiny toys... They could be called the "Inquisition" of Infinity, but it falls so... short.
Fair, it was not well written. And I agree with you. If they are going to make sectorals they should make them feel a bit more unique than vanilla. But then I also hate fireteams. To me it should only be about what you can and cannot take.
Nothing forces you to link the troops in the sectorial... In fact I tend to suggest to new players to limit themselves to models from a single sectorial, not using Fireteam rules, so they have less stuff to learn to use (and are less owverwhelmed when it comes to mount and paint).
I'd love to do a tournament of "No Fireteams" You can play whatever you want but no fireteam rules used. Some sectorals i'm sure would just not be used but then you might want to play one because you want AVA 3 of a troop instead of 1 in Vanilla. It's also a beginner friendly thing too.
If you're treating your Kuang Core like it's a smoke shooting pack of Netrods then you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how to play ISS. Now that you can wildcard in No2, your link should be diving down the midfield and trading Kuang Shi for every enemy troop in chain rifle range dumb enough not to dodge. Your link costs 50 points, your opponent's costs 100+. You clear a path with your Hsien, then drop a dirt cheap link on your opponent's side of the table and invite them to deal with it. The 15 order cap isn't a weakness for ISS; it's a strength. As for ARO: ABH Akrylats are 12 points and you can take two. Toss them into G2 with Lunah and coordinate down enemy hard AROs. Mask your Kanren FO as a hacker and slow down your opponent as they spend orders trying to hack unhackable models. Take a Wu Ming haris, they're cheap and come with Panzer and HRLs. The suggestions you guys are making imply you never stopped playing N3 ISS.
Of course all that being said I do agree that ISS has trouble handling heavy armor and Bao are unfortunately pretty boring. My suggestion is to give them an MMR and BS Attack (AP). I would strongly consider taking Bao and Pheasants as a tank hunter haris in that case.
Now, first and foremost, if by "playing N3 ISS" you mean order spam it up with lots of Kuang Shi... I didn't do that at any point during N3 so... *shrugemoji*. I did spend a bit of time trying to get Bao to work and comparing Wu Ming to Celestial Crane links as well as trying out Kanren mind games. Let's put it like this; the one that worked best for me got me excited about Invincible Army. So far, all lists I've built has a link of either Kuang Shi or Celestial Guards as fillers, Xi Zhuang to drop MadTraps tactically, and Adil Mediumut to deliver a punch, with a Monitor to provide cover. All lists have them because that's the most exciting change to the sectorial in my opinion. Well, that and the solo Hsien LT2. Unfortunately that link is very light on guns and as a result most lists also have a Deva and two Dakini. The one thing I'm most excited about testing is the Hsien LT2 as a solo piece. That said, as you describe it sending your opponent 5 orders to die, it sounds like your opponent really needs to cooperate for you to get them across the table. However, I wouldn't expect to get to the opponents DZ with a link that's made up of entirely or partially light units in a single turn. Years of cramming heavy links into my opponent's DZ, defending against Marker state assassins, and going on assassination runs myself have taught me that very few units actually get shit done going from DZ to DZ in a single turn. At least in my meta you slow down when you get across the table where your support pieces can't help and you slow down hard.
I feel some are too fixated on what ISS used to be and Kuang Shi. I try to think of them as almost totally different and new. True, I didn't like KS and almost never used them. But if you look at it it's really not that bad. Is it perfect? Of course not. Yeah I'd like some tweaks but I have a lot less issues with ISS than I do with White Banner. At least ISS has more core and haris fireteams to choose from and a few wildcards.
I deliberately tried to max out SWC using a +1 SWC profile as part of the exercise because mention had been made of how it can be hard to use it all in an ISS list. Normally I wouldn’t worry about it. I honestly think that Zhanying are a little bit of a sleeper for ISS because they give you a Haris that is functionally a second four-man Core link. That ML is B2 in ARO and has Sixth Sense, so he’s got a built-in answer to being attacked through smoke despite having no MSV. The hacker gets to hack ARO even against Stealth. If she can proc Targeted via Spotlight, the target gets easier to hack (if hackable) and the Haris gets the equivalent of a full Core bonus to hit it with bullets or missiles. On balance I think the HB list is at least as good in some ways, and with access to excellent healing it’s certainly more durable, but right now HB feels pretty top-tier. I really don’t know that ISS is in an amazing place, and the weird link restrictions bug me, but I also don’t quite think it’s unplayable junk. I’d be up for throwing these lists at each other on TTS sometime if you’re up for it and if we can work out the time zone complications — I’m in Seattle.
Bao troops and pheasant rank needs something. Almost nobody plays them. How about giving AP spitfire to a Baotroop.? I dont think and hope a change in wuming. They are already strong and Fine. Problem is the crane/kuangshi rank. It is not strong after N4. Suntze. Comeon worst situation is here.
Wu Ming aren't really cheap though in the context of the modern game, they were cheap in N3. They're actually pretty bad compared to Zuyongs now. Even if you make the cheapest HRL haris possible and eschew tinbot protection (that's a really bad idea in N4 by the way) their lack of access to viable TacAw profiles means a reasonably costed Zuyong haris comes out as more points efficient per order with a more dangerous gun attached it and it doesn't give up tinbot protection, plus they get to break order limits with TacAw which is a huge advantage. And that's not even opening the can of worms where Zuyong also have access to much much better fireteam compositions thanks to wildcards. For Wu Ming to distance themselves from Zuyongs they need to inhabit a new role and offer something different. The issues I have when I look at ISS often come back to two main things: Their fireteams feel extremely outdated Much like N3 IA, there are several dudd unit entries that really limit your options Celestial Guard, not a good core link on their own, same for Wu Ming and Bao were a shit core that can't even make a core link anymore, now they're a really questionable Haris. There are a couple of reasonable Haris links (Dakini/Hsien) but none of them feel good enough to carry the sectorial on their own and they certainly don't feel as strong or well rounded as some of the Haris links IA or WB can offer. For every good unit profile you find in ISS there's another unit on their roster that either outright sucks or has problematic fireteams that want better wildcard support.
I don't think ISS is as much in a bad spot as this thread imply. It has everything it needs to perform well enough in most situations, and will only seriously fold if up against skewed lists playing hard on their weakness like hacking heavy or double TAG, which are unfortunately stronger than ever in N4. Not all faction want (or can) skew their list this way, and against those I expect ISS to have more than a fair shot at winning. edit: There's also an issue with strong MSV AROs, but I'd argue that's the case for a lot of other factions as well and it's not an issue for all missions.
