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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    From my vantage point CA and Onyx have some spectacular hacking and options to quickly set up a juggernaut of a network that did not exist in N3. But I guess it's easier to be salty about maestro rather than make use of the aggressive and defensive uses that the new rules provide against a wider array of targets.
     
  2. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    I think we are not going to agree on how impactful some of the N4 changes to OCF. But in the change from N3 to N4, the phrase "Killer hackers being a reasonable threat to Interventors" could be viewed similarly to "Red fury a being a reasonable threat against an Avatar." Interventors whole thing is that they are super hackers, why should they not be highly resistant to basic killer hacking devices?
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's interesting, because linked Kerr-Nau is still basically the best option for laying down repeaters in Onyx, and that existed in N3.

    And, prior to N4, part of Combined Army's schtick was that they had unique and dangerous infowar capabilities, why should they not have this in N4?

    The change to effectiveness of a Red Fury vs. an Avatar is much smaller than the change in effectiveness of an EIKHD vs. an Interventor in the edition changeover. Even with MSV2, in the 8-16 range band, the odds of one-shotting an Avatar with a Red Fury were very, very low. The odds of one-shotting an Interventor with Maestro or whatever was much higher, but in N4 it's very, very low.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Kerr-Nau has stayed as good at laying down repeaters as he was in N3, but Bit and KISS are better than ever at laying down repeaters in their 21pt profile configuration and easily the best repeater network setup for their cost in the game. Linked Kerr-Nau complements them well at laying down repeaters by adding additional programs and giving a longer-range option for laying down repeaters for scalpel work by laying down repeaters.



    Edited in bold for ease of Hecaton's reading comprehension.
     
    #2604 RobertShepherd, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No. He lost Maestro and his KHD got worse.
     
  6. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    @Mahtamori your statements about the numbers game in hacking are solid. I disagree about repeaters, and I think hacking as a largely reactive game is an interesting feature, not a bug.

    You're right about the numbers game being off. Normalizing BTS values to ARM, and bringing hacking DAM into band with guns, is a good idea. As is making exotic ammo a secondary choice rather than having it on the most common programs.

    Hacking got slimmed down into the rock/paper/scissors game that everyone claimed it was in N3 (but were wrong about, which Nomad players constantly demonstrated). It needs to be fleshed back out a bit with the exotic ammo and effects being optional choices, with a basic-ass combi-equivalent program as the lower default.

    Dealing with Tinbots has an obvious solution: Blackout also needs to return, and to be able to attack and take out Tinbots, which should be comms gear. Being able to chip away at the "armor" on a Tinbotted hacker would be worth the orders when there's no other way around that trooper.

    In fact the Blackout program should be an option on both KHDs and HDs, it would fit both operational profiles. I also think a basic anti-hacker program should return to the basic HD, aka Brian Blast. I used it fairly often, and it served well (on a Tinbot Brigada HD mostly). The low B made it a cometitive marginal choice but not obvious.

    This is however the sort of deeper play that they cut out of hacking because "no one ever used it,"... aka players of factions other than Nomads and CA rarely understood hacking at all and only used the obvious tools. The problem with Hacking was always that it was poorly explained, not that the suite of options were too redundant (other than KHDs, where Redrum was good enough to make everything else redundant, true. Easily dealt with via a mild nerf).

    However regarding direct presence in the midfield of hackers instead of repeaters, these are situational, and I think you're missing their value and overstating the value of deployable repeaters a bit.

    Your negative assessment of hackers placed in the midfield ignores the movement and order requirements of missions, and the value of forward specialists. Epecially hackers in missions with hacker bonuses and classified missions which require the hacker to be up front, not working through a Repeater. Hacking directly with a hacker in the midfield rather than a repeater saves you orders for advancing or killing stuff, and often gets a bonus to perform WIP rolls on objectives. The tradeoff of vulnerability is often worth it (especially if you have Zeros or linked HDs which make it a cheapo investment of both points and orders).

    It also makes great bait to draw in KHDs while your own TO hackers etc. lie in wait.

    Disposable repeaters in particular do not need a nerf IMO. They are easily cleared by non-hackable troops. This happened to my disposables last week. People just haven't gotten used to counter-playing to deal with their effectiveness in N3. Yes, they make reactive hacking nasty... which is just like AROs anywhere else in the game (without cover-like effects true, but that applies to the reactive player as well, making hacking more decisive in general). Without that extension of function, hacking becomes largely useless. The answer is counterplay, not a mechanical nerf.

    As for Guided, you are right about the problem but not the solution IMO. The answer to Guided being a bit too powerful is to bring back the U-Turn program and put it on EVOs. 15 points to insure a bit against both Guided and Combat Jump makes an interesting counterbuild option. It also further incentivizes using EVOs for some purpose other than assisting Combat Jumpers, making them less obvious.

    Nerfing Guided itself is not needed, and the nerfs you suggest are too far IMO (like cancelling Targeted after a single round of Guided fire, which makes Guided attacks pretty useless against any hard target). Instead having more counterplay options is needed. It would also be cool to see ECM on the more valuable HI miniatures, especially CA, Pan O, and YJ elite HI units.
     
    #2606 Savnock, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  7. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    You know, I've missed the context of things other people say plenty of times in the past when skimming forum threads, but never when someone was replying directly to my own statements.

    Let me edit my post for some clarity.
     
  8. SpectralOwl

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    Personally I'd like an easy way to address Repeaters instead of kill good Hackers through them. Those guys are meant to feel strong, but working through Repeaters at present forces most potential threats to attack them where they're at their (fairly unbalanced in some cases) strongest. I don't mind an Interventor being tricky to take down with some high-school-dropout Fusilier, but making every Moran and Transductor represent the same lethal threat feels a bit much especially considering the Moran itself isn't even Hackable, so you can't really do anything about it if it's well positioned unless you have a Jammer handy or are willing to burn tons of order on Speculative (which is dreadful this edition if you're using anything but a Core Fireteam) or Guided fire. I don't really care if it's handled by new Hacking tools, some fun new units equipped to hunt hidden Repeaters, or solid assassins to go after their backline support, I just want to be able to pick a faction and not ever have to worry about conceding turn one because I have no efficient approaches whatsoever into a strong Repeater network.
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Aight. I mean, my point still stands - Kerr-Nau is basically as good for the midfield repeater placement and is superior for the long-range one because of the +1 BS and +3 BS from core fireteam. I think @1337Bolshevik vastly overstates any improvements to repeater coverage that exist in N4 for Onyx.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is exactly it. A basic hacker should feel outmatched against something like an Interventor. Attacking them with a KHD should feel like... I dunno, attacking a TAG with a K1 weapon. Rocket tag.
     
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  11. 1337Bolshevik

    1337Bolshevik Let them eat repeaters

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    What is bit and kiss
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Mmmm, I thought it would have been implied, but my comparison was against Bit & Kiss.
     
  13. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Agreed that dealing with Repeaters needs one more option. Bringing back Blackout would be a good option IMO, and it would fit well on both KHDs and HDs. It could/should also be extended to work against Tinbots, and maybe Jammers as well.

    However Oblivion does do all these things now, with the exception of turning off Tinbots or Jammers. So we do have an option for shutting down Repeaters themselves.

    Oblivion even gives you a Normal roll against the Repeater, but you'll get hit with Oblivion AROs or worse by the opposing hackers while you shut down the repeater. If you have an Engineer around that's pretty easily fixed at the cost of an order, though.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can shut down Repeaters inside your own Repeaters with Oblivion. But that's hardly efficient.

    Spec Fire was previously an occasionally decent solution to awkwardly placed Repeaters (all of which were previously S1 so harder to hide as well).

    I think Hacking being a largely Reactive tool is fine. Quite literally elsewhere we have people making offhand comments about the active advantage in N4.

    I have no idea what @Mahtamori is talking about with fantasy intent and stacked AROs but I think his earlier point about access and pathing being important though is key: you can clearly get a sense of frustration that multiple Repeaters hidden on a roofs along limited approach paths causes. Honestly I think that the elevation and the difficulties of getting up buildings is a common problem in Infinity tables.
     
  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    While is is true the thread has run its course there is still active discussion done here to close it, what is your opinion on it?
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I vote to close it. If people want to suggest rules changes, it's better if they start a new thread with a topical subject line. The subject of this thread is long over.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I can really respect this, even if I'll keep disagreeing with it :)

    I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about here. I've seen some Nomad players having some pretty colourful opinions about other people's opinions regarding N3 hacking, but from my perspective CB mostly just trimmed the fat. N3 had a whole bunch of unused programs or programs with such narrow and specific uses that they frankly needed to be cut or changed to provide decent variation.
    From where I stand, N3 was more rock-paper-scissor than N4 hacking is now, even though HDs still automatically beat hackable units by virtue of them not being able to fight back in the hacking game as this is the whole point of hacking in the first place. It's that KHD no longer automatically beat (A)HD.
    Of course, this may be different from what a Nomad player might experience given that the factions I play only have access to basic devices.

    I used Blackout.

    It was difficult to use as Yu Jing because the only repeater you'd be able to get into the ZoC of another Repeater was a Lu Duan at some pretty silly order expenditure, but Blackout was a means for me to deal with particularly nasty Repeaters given how grenades were basically not an option in a majority of lists due to faction design.

    Can't say I ever had it happen to Tinbots, though. Generally speaking, you'd have Oblivion happen to them because Tinbots of the Firewall variety are almost exclusively on Hackable units (quick search and I can only find them on HI/TAG/REM). They are and still were comms equipment, so Isolation will disable them.

    My bad for posting late at night.

    In the general context of what Triumph/Hecaton has been complaining about a lot on the forums lately, where the play style is to have entrenched hackers in the deployment zone and carrying out the hacking game by tossing pitchers all over the place, there is little incentive to have these souped up cheerleaders to be out on the table unless the game situation is particularly dire.
    I've been trying to tell them that KHDs against hackers that are out and about on the board is very much alive and that it is now a fairly dynamic cat-and-mouse game

    And...
    Deployable Repeaters are in my experience just a smidge more difficult to deal with than forward operating hackers. There's a bunch of stuff that works on the hacker that doesn't work on deployable equipment and deployable equipment do not need to care about being able to relocate once placed and generally speaking you can't ARO the repeater being placed but you can ARO the hacker.
    Add in that the most effective counter play to deployed repeaters was nerfed by removing the +3 rangeband from grenade launchers...

    You say counter play is the answer and I agree that is a different approach to the problem, but I do not think counter play is in a good spot at the moment. It is far too order intensive compared to the investment the repeater-placing player made and highly faction dependent whether it is possible or in some cases where possible it dictates strongly how the list will look because there's few units capable of playing this game

    Of course, when playing on tables where overly clever placement is not possible or against opponents who do not understand how to place repeaters so that counter-play itself becomes significantly more order-intensive than the placement of those repeaters were - well, counter play is very possible here.

    I'm not sure how I feel about making EVO REMs mandatory. The only faction I see making comfortable use of EVO at the moment are Aleph and Combined where those hackers are armed.

    I wouldn't say a single near-guaranteed-to-hit AP+EXP DAM 14 is useless against hard targets. That'll kill anything that's not a TAG (who have ECM to remove the "near guaranteed") or McMurrough (whom I have killed using Guided just because I could)

    I'm also not entirely sure how I feel about relying on "counter play" being limited to what CB decides is advanced enough to have "hacking mimetism" when guided is primarily a means to attack fireteams in general and not so much heavy infantry.
    I mean, you might as well make Firewalls work against Guided and you'll have a more dynamic counter play that will be available to all through EVO Hackers, but it'd still mean that lists without hackable units don't really participate in the hacking game other than as punching bags.

    What if killing two birds with one missile?
    What if plain and simple missile launchers had Speculative Fire and Guided was removed? Yes, I realise the implications of having an EXP template with a +3 rangeband that can best be described as "all of the opponent's DZ" available to almost all Fireteams, but ignoring that it'd be overpowered as fuck in that respect, it would increase the coverage of repeater counter play, increase the value of missile launchers as an active turn weapon, and provide a simulacrum of Guided that'll at most reach BS+3 if the target is Marked.
     
  18. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    @Mahtamori to be honest I think the problem lies with the Spotlight program rather than with Guided.

    I'm A-OK with Guided working as it did in N3 - it usually took several orders to set up, and because Spotlight was an active turn program you really had to pump orders into lighting up a target that had the option to Reset to avoid getting nailed. It was also kinda cool when it worked - using a hacker to run up, Spotlight a dug-in model and blow it away with a guided missile.

    This business of being able to Spotlight 5 different units in ARO, then Guided each and every one of them in the active turn, is the problem here. I acknowledge that, yes, you could use Stealth to move past the repeater, but that disallows you from doing anything else within range of that repeater. Similarly, you could shoot the repeater, but if you do so within 8" you'll be Spotlighted on a normal roll for your efforts.
     
    #2618 TriggerPuller9000, Jan 5, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2021
  19. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    @Savnock, I believe that Oblivion does still disable tinbots, as they are comms equipment. Of course, the unit carrying them has to be hackable in the first place...
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @TriggerPuller9000 Yeah, but on the other hand, I like what Spotlight does for regular units against armies trying to opt out of hacking. An apt replacement for a soft-hack would be necessary in the case of Spotlight being removed from the ARO list.

    As a small aside, the complicated process of Sat-Lock was when I most often saw Guided used in N3. Spotlight is better now, though...

    Yup. It's buried in the long-ass post of mine and only units that are hackable units currently have Tinbot: Firewall.
     
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