They're actually kinda great at handling anything except linked high-BTS uberhackers, which are unfortunately common enough that KHDs can't be fully relied upon to do their only job, meaning alternate solutions tend to be used instead. Fixing the balance here is as simple as taking fecking Wildcard off the worst offenders and giving them link options more in line with their power level- much like nearly every other complaint relating to links this edition. Take away the possibility of Jazz, an Interventor or maybe a KoJ and a KHD can operate much more freely.
Like I said, the real fix is making KHDs actually dangerous again. I don't think it's going to happen for a long time though so I'd rather just be able to at least put them in a link without making them an actual detriment, they're shitty enough as equipment goes that they don't need that on top of it. It's not just Nomads with these offending units, BTS6 or higher plus a firewall is actually pretty common possibility. I see Kamau and Psi-cop hackers running around with that on a regular basis and they're not exactly from top tier hacking factions, and I'm pretty sure I'm gonna start to see Bolts doing the same too very soon. Yu Jing has the same ability to put that on the table too, Ye Mao and Shang Ji spring to mind.
Then stick them in a link, just don't put other types of hackers in that link. Or do it and just don't declare more than one hack at a time. Or do present more than one hack at a time and let one hacker get kicked out only to get back into the link at the start of the next turn due to fireteam integrity rules. It's not actually a big deal in game. Trinity is highly dangerous. In the active turn. Against Hackers that are not specifically designed to be highly resilient to hacking attacks. As it should be. Stop trying to shank a stone wall. It's like a combi rifle. A really cheap combi rifle that you really shouldn't use as your primary means to shoot a Jotums with. But it works well against stuff like Fusiliers.
That's a good way to get your hacker bricked tossing him out of a link. That's a good way of looking at it... if the hacking equivalent of the AP weapon you needed to kill the metaphorical hacking Jotum existed. But that doesn't exist for basically anyone who isn't Mary. Most people are stuck with nothing but Trinity, which is a problem. I don't hate Trinity as a program. I hate only having Trinity as a program. CB could unfuck the hacking shitshow tomorrow if they put some variant of Skullbuster back on the KHD.
Is it though...? Yes. There's no metaphorical AP Combi, but Oblivion does have higher DAM and AP if you can break win the hacking fight. But you don't have to hack them. Instead ask yourself why you insist on trying to use hacking to solve the problem of Tunguska. --- Anyway, wrapping back to IA. Sure it's annoying that a Haidao is ever so slightly awkward when put in a Fireteam, but I don't feel like KHDs belong in Fireteams anyway. Since the changes to how stuff works in N4 and with the extra bit of leeway IA's lists have got, I've found more reason to use the CoC Haidao as I don't typically feel as threatened by hacking. At least so far. Deploy more defensively, use ARO opportunities that forces your opponent to waste as many orders as possible, cover miniatures and approaches cleverly, hunker down and resist/reset until you can punch back harder. And most of all, remember that your opponent is also making some bloody hard choices and compromises when list building.
Losing your firewall bonuses? Yeah. It's pretty much like pushing your model out of cover during a firefight. There's no resetting against guided missiles being punted into your link. Hackers plus guided weapons are an extreme problem right now. The more I play N4 the more egregious hacking and guided weaponry is becoming. Either you hide under a camo marker or you hide in a tinbot -6 link and pray like fuck you win reset rolls or you invariably eat shit.
So, again you raise a problem that will only be made worse by your suggested solution instead of addressing the problem itself.
Fewer HDs on the table means fewer problem units that need to be removed. Every KHD that's in a link isn't points and a body being spent on a regular hacker in that link causing problems. That's not hard math to resolve. I see fuckloads of HD and HD+ right now. I see very, very, few basically almost no KHDs, the KHDs that are being used are being used to cyber mask or push buttons pretty much exclusively. Anything you can do to buff these pieces of shit will help them get onto the table and take up a player's allotted infowar resources instead of being spent on something that punts guided missiles and spams spotlight and oblivion. I don't think it's possible to do 100% infowar safely. If you do nothing but or over invest in infowar I think you're opening yourself up to a hard counter in a bad matchup for camo/skirmisher spam. Granted I could be wrong there, but essentially I see stuff like Hassassins and Shas really being the main things that might keep guided infowar spamming shit in check, but that requires a meta to have critical mass in these armies being present so it's not a great solution.
It still can't fucking kill or even threaten these hackers reliably. It spends orders just bouncing the fuck off them. I can't justify building these lists when he's an active fucking detriment to his links. The only way it's even going to be remotely useful, again, if CB aren't going to unfuck their shitty idea of good hacking design, is to at least make it not fuck up links when you try to put them in there. I am better off spamming Zhanshi HD like you mentioned, and we're back to fucking square one.
What do you do if the enemy decides to accept normal rolls and stick Spotlight on your Shang-Jesus? Your hackers are forced to decide on ARO when the enemy idles. You'll be hacking through a Repeater so it's your whateverhack at WIP 13 or 10 versus theirs at wip 13-15. If your normal roll succeed they'll make a BTS save and if their normal roll succeed your Tinbot is Targeted. What you think of as a discouragement isn't necessarily that, and what you see as a solution is more like a QOL that'll also make it easier to do the missile spam, not harder, for anyone going for that approach. Hacking in N3 didn't work because there were no benefits to being vulnerable to it and because KHDs were so effective because they ignored defences and the best programs were also geared towards ARO rather than being used in the active turn (being low burst, MOD stacking with high DAM and AP/DT) I do not care to return to that era of Infinity, I'd much rather improve on the improvements made in N4.
I accept the 60ish percent chance they fail the -6 WIP check for spotlight and opt to hack while the tinbot carrier does nothing. If they're eating multiple uncontested hacking AROs it's probably approaching very even odds of each player landing successful hacking attacks and you trade out. Not great but it's the best option in a shit sandwhich. Personally, I probably avoid putting the attack piece in the nerd link if possible but that depends on the list. There are things CB have done better in N4, but if I had to choose between the two I'd go back to N3 without question it functioned more smoothly without causing game wrenching balance issues. I used every hacking device available to YJ on a regular basis in N3, and to actually fulfill their hacking roles not just be a shitty button pusher. People who couldn't figure out how to use an assault hacking device were largely either retarded, or kept trying to use the profiles that were designed like shit and couldn't figure out the profile was the issue not the AHD, or their meta was 20 order Dahshat/Ariadna warband spam and all their hackers were fucking pointless not just the AHD. I like in N4 that hacking actually has some interactivity with non hackables with spotlight. What I do not like is the ecosystem. It is absolutely fucked in terms of balance. The level of haves and have nots is utterly fucked up. What CB has done has basically been to the same effect as if they gave a couple of sectorials access to wildcard then told a bunch of factions to suck a fat dick. I have physically in person witnessed a player run out of targeted tokens while their opponent, an Ariadna player, was more or less just sitting there scratching their head trying to figure out how the fuck they were supposed to deal with this. What's the fucking counterplay? There is none. CB was asleep at the wheel and forgot to actually put some fucking tools in their box to interact with the hacking game. The current state of KHDs in N4 vs N3 is a similar problem just less extreme on the scale. If you give the weaker factions shit tools that can't interact effectively with a portion of the game you are changing from "optional and ignorable" to "basically mandatory unless you likely dodging guided missiles" you are going to cause balance issues. The fact that the lower down on the pole you go, repeater coverage goes from "LOL PITCHER FROM DZ TO DZ" to "What the fuck actually is a repeater even?" just further exacerbates this N4 imbalance. The KHDs not working through repeaters anymore just further kicks the underdogs in the balls for no real reason and dogpiles the problem even further for factions stuck fighting in enemy repeater networks all the time. If hacking is going to be as pervasive as it currently is we can't have factions that hack like shit anymore. The bottom end of the totem pole needs to be a credible, deadly threat in infowar. They need to be able to threaten removing problem pieces. There's plenty of other ways to juice up the top end of the spectrum by applying other benefits. You can still flaunt Nomad hacking supremacy even if Ariadna has KHDs capable of frying tough targets if you're allowing Nomads to run around with profiles like Jazz. You can give better hacking factions more options like better a better version of white noise, the old EVO gadget programs. Shit that is good and useful, but doesn't more or less directly translate into assfucking your opponent sideways with direct firepower they have absolutely no chance of competing with.
While I think we are far beyond the scope of this topic, I think you've got some pretty damned big rose tinted goggles on. The Hacking changes in N4 brought about two issues as far as I am concerned; 1) they forgot that Guided was a thing and 2) the problem with AHDs wasn't that Oblivion didn't have AP, it was that AHDs were eaten alive by KHDs which was a balance issue they fixed - and the first one of those problems is easily fixed if CB can be convinced it's a bug and not a feature of the rule set. The big problem with hacking as a tactical tool is still the same: hacking ARO is too strong compared to hacking during active order expenditure because Repeaters work for all Hackers. As has been shown in multiple threads in other faction forums, KHDs are actually quite competent at their job if and when they are allowed to work without having to deal with massed AROs, which this game system's balance really wasn't built for handling. KHD as a defensive tool is pretty much dead. You're not meant to use it for ARO purposes and with a name like that I question whether that was ever intended. They're certainly not priced as such anyway. Meanwhile I do stress to note that the old AHDs are still with us, they just removed the A along with the crap programs from it, so if it was a functional device before it's a functional device now even if your Guided spammer is in null state. P.s. running out of Markers says nothing. I've got two Targeted Markers across 3 sets of different Markers and I routinely run out of Prone Markers which I have a lot of, which is, I must say, not impressive at all.
I don't have a problem with the fact that N3 AHDs were at extreme risk to KHDs, that was the fucking point of a KHD. They were supposed to find AHDs/HDs and murder them. People who whinged about that might as well whinge about an MSV2 sniper skull fucking smoke throwing warbands. We'd have a far better hacking system if they just made the spotlight buffs, hell, hand the Oblivion buffs out too, and more or less left the KHDs the fuck alone. People who think they're competent at their job either can't do math or are very conveniently not having to ever deal with high BTS firewalled hackers. I see these fuckers all the time and they are a problem. I should also make a point of the significantly less lethal KHD is allowing repeater networks to get way the fuck out of hand. There is absolutely no punishment for tough hackers to spam repeaters all over the table, hell, fart repeaters into your opponent's DZ on turn 1 who gives a shit you're basically invincible to the majority of opponents. In N3 there was a real risk that over saturating a table with repeaters was giving repeaters to your opponent who didn't naturally get any for his still at least somewhat dangerous KHD carriers. In N4 I regularly question whether I'm playing Transmission Matrix all the time. N3 my regular Bahram opponent really had to think about the optimal time to go for his pitcher placements, preferably after sussing out the KHD situation and dealing with it. N4? Last game with him I've got 2 fucking pitchers in my DZ on the top of turn 1 from a core linked Barid and it's a hacking free for all he gives so few shits about any KHD I might have as Vanilla YJ. Fuck dude it's dead as an offensive tool as well and that's the real problem it has. The basic device is just dead dog shit period and it's contributing to balance issues with weaker hacking factions totally unable to punch up anymore. It's early N3 TAGs all over again. There's a few people with some pretty damn good ones, and alot of people with some really fucking useless ones. Except now the TAGs shoot you with guided missiles and you feel like you're playing N2 again. Your nitpicking is noted, you know what I was implying.
I know what you were trying to imply, but what you actually implied by the Markers running out was that the missile REM did a poor job of returning them to the pile. Anyway, I'm out. Hope someone found the back and forth enlightening/funny.
Well, that was certainly a series of posts. Back to topic-ish, I ran the following IA-esque White Banner list the other day in a TTS game of Mindwipe against @QueensGambit. A combination of unforced errors and my signature consistent bad luck made it a very short game! Spoiler: Mistakes Were Made Mistakes Were Made ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 3 ZHANSHI (Lieutenant) Combi Rifle / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) TIAN GǑU 1st Section (Hacker, Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 38) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) YĚ MĀO (Hacker, Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 31) <-- Uberhacker for the mission YĚ MĀO (Engineer, Deactivator) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust, D-Charges ( | GizmoKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 31) YĚ MĀO AP Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) GROUP 2 2 2 3 JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / AP + DA CC Weapon, Breaker Pistol. (0 | 36) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 21) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 6) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army The intent was to use the Ye Mao Haris to activate a console, then use either the Ye Mao team or Jing Qo + Liang Kai to get at the target server. The Zhanshi+Shang Ji link was intended to anchor things, and I planned to use the monks to provide cover for the Ye Mao and possibly enable them to pull a smoke trick shot here or there. QueensGambit brought a SAA list centered around a Tikbalang, Scylla and bot, Dart, and a solid assortment of support troops—Bagh Mari sniper, some Regulars, etc. I lost the roll-off, went second, and decided to gamble on a semi-null deployment because I picked the absolute wrong side of the board to start on given my list composition. The Tik was his reserve...this would turn out to make my own errors terminal, as it devolved into a situation where the combination of his play and the terrain left me quite bottled up by the end of his first turn. Start of my first turn I was down a Warcor, Shang Ji HRL, my Paramedic, and Shang Ji-sus was down a wound and out of position. A mine and Tik in suppression under an overpass were watching my console, Scylla had activated his console (and rolled "pick one" for the server, LOL) and then positioned herself and her bot for AROs. A monk tried to smoke and failed, the other succeeded, and the Tik proceeded to crit my AP Spitfire Ye Mao off the table...through smoke...on a 3. I then tried moving my now three-man Core link up to deal with Scylla via the Tian Gou's KHD. She made her saves, and a distant Regular Hacker used her bot's Repeater to Oblivion my Tian Gou. At that point I decided to throw in the towel, because I didn't have enough Orders left to accomplish much. The combination of the map layout and facing a Tik in suppression just lurking there, with a Bagh Mari sniper behind him and Dart hanging out overhead, meant that the next turn's events seemed like a foregone conclusion unless I got very, very lucky. Which, well...isn't a thing. :P I've only been able to get five actual N4 games in, and three of them have played out on some variation of "this TAG is going first and will ruin your day." So...if you knew for a fact that you'd be going second and facing an alpha from a well-supported TAG, what would your IA list look like and how would you try to deploy it to weather your opponent's first turn?
Don´t take this wrong, but I fail to see how that list is "IA-esque"... care to elaborate? We don´t have speedbump troops against a TAG alpha. The one game at my last serious ITS I was totally destroyed with IA (to the point of not playing a turn) was going second against a Sphinx... sad days. I would place the Haidao MSR in a way it cannot be avoided, guarding approaching venues with a Zencha and Krit´s repeater plus D-Charges for perhaps a lucky CC. Force it use hopefully several orders removing the Haidao and "edging" it into the edges of the table through Zencha and Repeater threat. Then I would drop a LiuXing Multi Rifle on its back to hopefully soften it up. If you can actually guard the approaching lane with a Haidao MSR and a SonBae, or another good ARO piece, you can actually give it pause. The goal is to make it split burst or take bad decisions to burn through orders. Edit: This is what I am thinking. Keep it tight, and the two flashpulse bots are also there to try and slow down some other approaches. Avoid spreading too thin. And an extra warm body to reform the link for the ShanJesus, so that at least he has a Haris to move forward. ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 1 HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Paramedic) Combi Rifle ( | MediKit) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 13) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49) ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35) KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41) DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30) LIÚ XĪNG (Specialist Operative) MULTI Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 35) GROUP 2 2 CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) 5.5 SWC | 298 Points Open in Infinity Army
To be fair, the Tik is like the best ARO-remover in the game. About the only ARO that can outshoot it is a linked Kamau or Bagh-Mari. In my limited Tik experience, the best AROs against it are camo snipers. Just don't reveal them, force your opponent to move up their scoring pieces, then ARO those. And hope you take them out in one shot, because as soon as you've revealed, the Tik is gonna get you. In that vein, I was surprised you didn't bring any Hunduns since they seem like the main reason to play WB (although, as you pointed out, you could also just play Vanilla YJ). A Hundun can't take on the Tik, but it could have zapped Scylla for example.
I feel like something like this as a base might work: ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 6 1 HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) ZHANSHI (Hacker, Hacking Device) Combi Rifle ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 16) KOKRAM (Forward Deployment [+8"], Minelayer) Heavy Shotgun, E/Mitter, E/M Mines ( | Deployable Repeater) / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 41) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 7) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse ( ) / Stun Pistol, PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 3) 2.5 SWC | 123 Points Open in Infinity Army Core linking that Haidao should eat at least a couple of orders, and no TAG will want to walk by Krit's repeater if it has two Zhanshi throwing Oblivion at it. The Chaiyi and Warcor should eat half an order each and don't cost much. Maybe the Zhencha Hacker could see play here, cover another part of the board on a rooftop. In N3, I actually had some success against TAGs with a core-linked Haidao sniper overlapping a Hac Tao ML. You can place the Hac Tao in a way that makes it impossible to avoid engaging both if they fight the Haidao. The big problem is that it's a lot of points and doesn't leave space for much else.
Hac Tao ML does sound like a reasonable answer to the Tikbalang. Even by itself, if you catch the Tik out of cover you have 34% to wound it and 22% to do two wounds, vs. the Tik's 34%-10%. That's pretty great odds on ARO. Then you get to do it a second time while the Tik scrambles to cover. After that, the Tik has the advantage but is still only 41% to wound, 12% to do two wounds. So, you're likely to make them waste 3-4 orders before they put a wound on the Hac Tao and he goes prone. That's enough to stop a first-turn alpha strike in its tracks, and you did it without losing a model. Of course if you catch the Tik out of 32" you get to have lots of fun.
