Pistols, CC and Fireteam Bonuses

Discussion in '[Archived]: N4 Rules' started by inane.imp, Nov 24, 2020.

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  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Q: Do you get to apply the +1 B from a Fireteam Bonus to Pistols being used to Perform a CC Attack in the Active Turn?

    A1: Yes, they are a BS Weapon and so benefit from the Fireteam Bonus to BS Weapons in the Active Turn.


    A2: No, when being used to perform a CC Attack they are treated as a CC Weapon not a BS Weapon.

    //


    Now I strongly prefer 2, but this is the Pistol rules:

    And that pretty unambiguously declares that they're a BS Weapon even when making CC Attacks. In the Active turn the Fireteam Burst Bonus applies to BS Weapons not BS Attacks.

    (emphasis mine).
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori still unresolved :)

    But very low priority because I think the intent is clear.

    I only flag it because I came across this argument when someone else was arguing for it (if it was just me I'd not worry on this one).
     
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  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think this doesn't even qualify as a single star rating for me, this is more a philosophical question to be honest.
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    No, never. Because of the double profile
    upload_2020-12-15_10-55-42.png

    You can only use the CC Mode and it is not a BS Weapon
     
  5. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Where does it says that? It's a BS Weapon with a CC mode. But a BS Weapon (Pistol) nonetheless.
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    Here
    upload_2020-12-15_11-32-9.png

    Here: https://infinitythewiki.com/Melee_Weapon_Profile

    When used with a CC Mode, a Pistol is treated as a Meele Weapon. A Meele Weapon is a weapon that can be used in CC. A BS Weapon is a weapon used at distance. They have different modes for a reason.
     
  7. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    This is something you've just inferred, doesn't seem to be listed in either of those sources.

    As far as the rule above, a Pistol is neither of those things.
     
  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    BS (Ranged) Weapons have ranges
    CC (Meele) Weapons do not have ranges

    Suit yourself...
     
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Never underestimate the tenacity and inconvenience of That F*cking Guy, who will inevitably bring up stuff like this during either a tourney or a FLGS game that needs to get moving.
     
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  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Again, inferred and you're mixing up separate qualifications / rules between CC Rule and what is a Melee weapon.

    A Pistol is a Ranged weapon. It has also a mode that has no ranges and instead has the "CC" rule that allows it to make CC attacks.

    By rulebook definition, a Pistol is defined as a Mixed Weapon - one that can be used as if it were a Melee weapon. It has a Use Mode as a Melee Weapon, but isn't one.

    A Mixed Weapon is not forbidden from gaining Burst, only a Melee Weapon is.

    Now, would I like the rule to be more precise and mention Mixed Weapons in CC mode? Sure.
    Would I agree if the Mixed Weapon type wasn't defined that a Pistol "becomes" a Melee Weapon in CC Mode? Absolutely.

    But as it stands, it's a Mixed Weapon, not a Melee one. Strictest RAW, it can gain Burst.

    upload_2020-12-15_16-33-41.png
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Do me a favor and check out the very different way this same problem is solved for Pistols and for Mixed Weapons:

    "The various types of Pistols are BS Weapons with two usage modes."

    "These are ranged weapons with Range MODS, while also having the CC Trait and, therefore, have a Melee Weapon Mode as well as a BS Weapon Mode."

    Note pistols are BS Weapons in both modes where as Mixed Weapons are ranged weapons but are only BS Weapons in the BS Weapon Mode.

    Basically, this whole thing is a cludge of overlapping terminology.
     
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