Was playing a game in a league. The opponent was active player. Active Trooper has partial cover. 1st short skill: BS attack. Asks for ARO (mine) I use BS skill to shoot at the active trooper 2nd short skill move from a partial cover to another partial cover exposing the trooper out of cover during movement. Opponent claims the timing of my ARO when he is in cover gives him partial cover because I shoot him before he uses 2nd short skill to move to another partial cover. That this particular scenario overrules the whole everything happens simultaneously in N4. Is this true? Everywhere I read in the rules it keeps saying that everything in simultaneous.
While Inane.imp posts to a informative lawyer thread involving intent. I think the simplest answer can be found in the wiki. http://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#ARO:_Automatic_Reaction_Order From the all at ALL AT ONCE section: For example, if an activated Trooper declares Move + BS Attack and chooses to shoot from its starting position (to take advantage of a favorable Range), and its target reacts with a BS Attack, choosing to shoot at the end of the Movement (again, for Range purposes), then both actions are still considered to be simultaneous for all game purposes. I’ve underlined the part that is critically important. For all intents and purposes Mov+BS Attack & BS Attack+ Mov are the same declarations.
I don’t agree that Move + BS, and BS + Move are identical for ARO purposes. As at the time of ARO you don’t know where the target will be. But as inane.imp posts it’s still undecided
It's unresolved, for the reasons discussed in the thread @inane.imp posted. The wording @MrAnarchy posted refers to when the active trooper chooses its shooting-from position, not when the reactive trooper chooses its shooting-at position. See the original thread for details.
It’ll be a hell of a big change in the game mechanics if it isn’t the same result. The previous three editions had the attacker decide where along the target’s movement path they were shooting essentially just before rolling dice.
Nothing in the section you quoted provides any clear evidence as to when that choice is made and you deliberately failed to cite large sections of the rules that appear to contradict him. You're engaging in exactly the same "lawyer thread" that you - deliberately insultingly - deride. I've changed the emphasis in the quoted text, when do the rules oblige you to make choices about a declaration (absent an exception)?
I legit don't understand why this hasn't been resolved, at least with a provisional ruling. There are basically two questions: "In ARO, when do I declare which point along my target's movement I'm using for measuring range, cover, and other MODs?" Basically, "If my opponent declares BS Attack then Move, can I wait until after the Move is declared to pick the location of my target, or do I have to declare that along with all the other BS Attack details and choices at time of ARO Skill declaration?" "In my Active turn, may I declare I'm firing from a location I will occupy during a subsequent Short Movement Skill declaration?" Basically, "If I declare BS Attack then Move, can I say my BS Attack will be fired from a location I intend to move to along my intended movement path, even though I haven't said what that movement path will be yet?" Both of these questions come down to the interaction of the same parts of the rules: All Details and Choices... This implies that the location of your target has to be specified at declaration since it's a choice the attacker makes, but I've had multiple people insist to me that since that specific detail isn't listed, this rule doesn't apply to picking target location, "etc." at the end of the list is somehow irrelevant. Vice Versa This implies that the attacker could declare BS Attack and then Move and still be able to specify taking the shot from partway along the movement path, which directly contradicts the All Details and Choices wording, and isn't clear about timing relative to the Order Expenditure Sequence rules. This rule's first sentence is based on a third rule, All At Once: All At Once There are a couple ways to resolve this: Declaring target location is a "detail or choice" and has to be specified at the time of Skill/ARO declaration along with the rest of the details of the attack. If the movement path isn't declared yet, you're obliged to specify the target's current (starting) position for range, cover, etc. Declaring target location is a "detail or choice" as above, but you can specify a conjectural spot before movement is declared, and if the target doesn't end up occupying that location then the Skill declaration is invalidated and becomes an Idle. Declaring target location is an exception to the "detail or choice" rule and may always be delayed until after movement path declaration, presumably meaning that it's declared during the Resolution step at the same time measurements are made and MODs are applied. IMO, options 1 and 3 are the cleanest. 1 has the simplest RAW support. 2 has slightly worse RAW support but is potentially a giant dumpster fire (oh, well, I'll move somewhere else and shoot back, have fun Idling). 3 has no real RAW support but makes a lot more sense than 2. Any chance @ijw has a minute to weigh in on this? It keeps coming up, and the level of "the hell you say" it evokes can be kind of high.
I remember when N3 came out and it was causing a lot of consternation that the new impact template rules forced the reactive model to lock in their target location after the first skill, seemingly in violation of all-at-once.
The fact that N4 direct and impact templates still work like that implies that option 1 is the "correct" choice since it would make all attacks consistent. A declaration of BS Attack + Move by Hector (or anyone with a missiles, rockets, flammenspeer, plasma, etc.) means you, what, put down the template at declaration, then declare Move, and then pick a location for range afterward? In practice it seems like BS Attack + Move is way, way less common than Move + BS Attack, so this is pretty niche and I've only ever had it come up a couple times, but it's weird and annoying that the RAW is semi-contradictory, doesn't seem to align with the expectations of players, and results in a weird process where direct templates, impact templates, and non-template BS Attacks all have slightly different declaration behaviors. A big part of why I tend to prefer option 1 is that it's at least internally consistent in N4. And things still resolve simultaneously (per All At Once) but the declaration sequence is much clearer.
Yeah, that distinction - between resolution and declaration - for All At Once is key (and often what causes confusion): All at Once does not mean that all declarations are treated as simultaneous (there is a specific sequence they follow) but rather it means that - irrespective of the time of their declaration - they're resolved simultaneously. So in the All at Once Move + BS Attack example, despite the fact that the two BS Attacks are performed against two different locations they're still resolved simultaneously as a FTF. That doesn't change in BS Attack + Move. What changes is the available options that exist to choose from at declaration.
A couple of someones got very cross with me on WGC Infinity Facebook recently for making a similar observation.
I actually would have liked to have the tactical option of "sacrifice weapon range to gain immunity to ARO while out in the open and moving". That is, BS Attack from cover as first short skill, demand ARO to that, then move freely, safe from ARO from those who have already reacted. Since I'm not a Camo anymore / haven't been in the first place, they have forfeited their ARO. I'd like it even if I'm going to provoke new ARO with the 2nd Short Skill Move, from those who haven't seen the first Short Skill, I guess, but still would be a neat tactical choice. If not, it would be a really good one.
In the first diagram a trooper (Alice) declares BS Attack (Vs Bob) + Move while inside ZOC of a third troooper (Charlie). This allows Alice's player to force his opponent to declare AROs while Alice is in Partial Cover with Bob and Total Cover from Charlie. The second image describes the scenario if instead Alice had declared Move + BS Attack: in this situation she'd take AROs from both Bob and Charlie without any cover.
In that case, that already existed in N2 / N3. Charlie is never going to get to shoot if Alice is starting in ZoC but out of LoF. The only question is if Bob has to deal with cover penalties.
Yup. The Alice/Charlie interaction is one I used to demonstrate why BS Attack + Move was useful in N3. The other one is if Bob has a DTW you're worried about.
I apologize, i was not attempting to deride anyone in the rules form. As I think the purpose of it, is for rules lawyering and finding the weak points. My initial statement was meant to be a practical response to what sounded like a casual play question. I feel like if a bunch of people are learning infinity at their FLGS and are getting tripped up over Mov+ BS vs BS + Mov they might just throw in the towel. We are certainly waiting for an FAQ or IJw to make a statement but I would rather it not prevent people getting games in.
Maybe it’s heresy to ask, but wouldn’t just always requiring the move to be the first short skill declared streamline a bunch of these sorts of issues?
