Alice is a Bandit in the Camouflaged State outside of LOF of Bob, a Jotum. 1. Alice Activates, spends an Irregular Order and Moves to within ~4" of Bob while remaining outside of LOF, announcing the use of Stealth 2. Bob does not have a valid ARO so doesn't declare anything 3. Alice Moves, again, into S2S with Bob. Alice remains out of Bob's LOF until reaching S2S. Alice and Bob enter the Engaged State and Alice's Camouflaged state is cancelled Does Bob have a valid ARO? A. Yes. In the version change Stealth had the line that prevented AROs on reaching S2S removed ( "A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them .") and therefore it not longer prevents AROs vs Troopers that reach S2S. B. No. Bob 'had no LOF' until Alice reached Silhouette contact, so Bob is only allowed to declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset or any Skill that can be used in the Engaged State only if Alice declares any non-Movement Skill.
because of how stealth is worded, i think it would end up being A. in n3 it would clearly be B but the section that changed the answers does appear to be removed and there is nothing left that would grant that level of "immunity"
B, because the first bullet is a general “grants no ARO” clause. The second bullet specifies an exception (using a non-Movement skill within ZoC) that Alice hasn’t done. The third bullet limits ARO options if the second bullet exception applies and the stealth Trooper reached base contact. Since the second bullet doesn’t apply to Alice’s Move-Move, the third bullet is irrelevant.
You're essentially arguing the first point is talking about LOF prior to reaching S2S not the LOF granted by reaching S2S, right?
I think it's A. The specific removal of the text that prevented AROs even when a trooper entered base contact (and thus LOF, because engaged troops have LOF to each other) is the only notable mechanical change between editions (plus two clean-up changes that don't alter the function of the rule), and makes me think they just forgot to edit the third dot point at the same time.
Yes, but no. You know, I've tried to think through this in writing at some length now, and I have no dang idea. More specifically, I can see a couple of different RAI ways it could work, and they both have big "it depends" flags on them. So I'm going to put a pin in it and if I can figure something out later I'll speak up. I'd suggest that the best workaround would be for Alice to declare Dodge outside ZoC then Move, and hope the Dodge is enough to bridge the gap and enter Silhouette contact at the end of the Order. At least we have a clear map of how that works in N4, and with Stealth it should avoid any AROs from Bob.
Doesn't Dodge break Stealth? I can't remember how Movement Skill vs skill with the movement trait resolved. IIRC Movement Skill = Short Movement Skill.
It does if you declare it within ZoC, which is why I said to declare it first, while still outside ZoC. (This only works for models with 6" or higher first MOV values, and/or Dodge (+2") and a player with a really precise eye for distances.)
Huh, I did not realise that. I honestly thought if you lost Stealth you lost Stealth. But it doesn't work like that, Stealth is basically just a property applied to Short Movement Skills. Note to self, for when I roll Move 8-4 on Booty.
I thought that question had been asked already and determined that Stealth + Move (into ZOC) broke stealth. Didn't we have a specific thread on it? Or am I misremembering the answer.
Yeah that's a reasonable interpretation. "However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO." Arguably, "second Short Skill" can be read as "the other of a pair" or as "the skill declared at Step 3 of the OES". I certainly think the intent would be for it to mean "the other one of a pair of short skills".
Well, Dodge declared outside ZoC and LoF doesn’t grant an ARO even without Stealth, Move benefits from Stealth, nothing happens with Dodge until after you make rolls during Resolution, and Dodge movement happens at end of Order and does not grant any AROs. As long as the Move is Stealthed and stays outside LoF and ZoC, if the Stealth model ends movement within 2” (or more for fast Dodgers) it shouldn’t grant an ARO, and then displaces into Silhouette contact at the end of the Order, beginning the subsequent Order there. Where in that progression does the enemy get an ARO?
I think our posts crossed. I think it hinges on what's meant by "second Short Skill" does it mean simply other of a pair or does it mean the subsequent of two? I tend to aggreeing with your position as RAW (that the second Short Skill is the one declared at Step 3), I'm just looking at how an alternative interpretation would be supported (if that was the intent, which is what I suspect may be true).
There is one change between editions that might have impact on this interaction. Engaged doesn't grant 360 vision.
From Line of Fire: Troopers engaged in CC have a 360º LoF, but only to whatever they are in Silhouette contact with. Therefore, Troopers engaged in CC cannot draw LoF to Troopers or game elements that they are not in Silhouette contact with.
But then I get dogpiled when I complain about the lack of an editor who would at the very least introduce a basic structure to the knowledge and data in the rulebook.
