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N4 Military Orders - As Things Stand

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Nov 10, 2020.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    [​IMG]



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    Military Orders in Infinity N4
    With the recent confirmation that the revamp of the Sectorial, which we have known was coming since Bostria talked about it on White Noise mid year, won't be happening in 2020, it seemed like a good time to consider what the situation is for Military Orders in the N4 environment.

    We'll consider the army as a whole, strengths and weaknesses, as well as the individual units. This won't be entirely comprehensive, but will seek to give a strong overview of the faction as it stands as one of the "Core 3" PanOceanian Sectorials at the beginning of N4.

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    Overall Strengths
    1: Armour / Heavy Infantry
    With the significant improvement to the value of Armour thanks to the N4 Crit rule, and the significant discounts which many ('though not all) Heavy Infantry saw in terms of their Points and Support Weapon Cost, Military Orders is well placed. With Heavy Infantry Knights being one of their premier unit choices, and the overall flexible range of options available within those orders, Military Orders remains one of the "go to" options for a Heavy Infantry based force.

    2: Close Combat
    Thanks to the re-arrangement of the Martial Arts chart in favour of MA2 Military Orders went from an "almost" Close Combat power to significant strength. While top tier elite CC units are generally better than a Knight, the various orders offer CC ratings, MA skill and weapons to be well worth taking advantage of when the opportunity arises.

    3: Mid-to-Close Range Firepower
    From 24" through to CC ranges Military Orders offers top tier firepower. With a range of high quality Spitfire platforms, and good access to Multi Rifles, they present dominant mid-range firepower. Core Linked Shotguns, on the other hand, give the rare opportunity to push past 20 in a BS attack, and there are few things more enjoyable than adding +3 to your roll with a firearm.

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    Overall Weaknesses
    1: Expensive Obvious Lieutenants
    Starting at a minimum of 26pts, mostly costing SWC, all being Hackable and largely on platforms which aren't easy to spam, it's often tough keeping your Military Orders Lt alive. It's also a significant list building hurdle, with most choices needing to play double duty in a Fireteam and thus facing increased risk.

    2: Order Economy
    With limited access to NCO and Tactical Awareness, no Lieutenant Level 2, expensive line infantry and limited availability of cheap remotes, Military Orders lists struggle to get to 15 orders. This isn't the disadvantage it once was, but what was nearly crippling in N3 is still challenging in N4.

    3: Peak Ranged Firepower
    Limited HMG options, limited Mimetism and no Camo gunfighters caps Military Orders firepower at "good but not amazing". Confronted by top tier ARO units like a Core Linked Kamau or Grenzer Sniper (and if the latter sounds like a strange example, go check them out... they got GOOD) Military Orders can find themselves stymied fairly easily.

    If you like where I'm going with this, check out the full article with unit breakdowns on the Heart of the Hyperpower Blog.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Going to have to disagree on a few things.
    First things first, Armor. Speaking in simplified terms a multiwound model is weaker to Crits if the Attack's final DAM value -10 exceeds final ARM after MODs (AP Ammo, K1, Cover...).
    ARM4 in Cover vs a DAM 15 AP HMG breaks even. ARM 3 loses durability compared to N3 Crits, ARM 5 slightly gains.
    In Cover and not up against a TAG mounted Multi HMG, HI mostly gains.
    Against any DAM16 AP TAG and pretty much every time you don't have Cover - HI mostly loses.

    The increase in durability is very noticeable in your Active Turn, when you get to pick engagements and Rangebands. However not so much on ARO unless our opponent caps out at HMGs, Spitfires and Multi Rifles without an opportunity to deny your cover.

    It's different for most 1W troops. A Crit would have always downed them, so getting the chance to live if they hold both saves is a net increase in survivability. On the other hand Doctors and Paramedics take a hit, because straight to death is more likely. The big winners here are 1W Remote Presence Remotes. 2 Levels of Unconsciousness to mitigate overkill, a chance to live even through a Crit on top of their newly gained ability to go Prone and automatically get back up after repairs (and Prone Palbots to help with that).

    Nontheless MO's forte is durability per body. HI might be more vulnerable to big hits in general, but that's not the end of the world, especially with Knights. Improved Dodge is a big strength for our mostly PH14 HI, compared to lets say IA. The MA overhaul buffed mostly the CC chumps, MA3 and MA4 are far less scary to a MA2 Knight than in N3 and they usually have a buddy for CC Burst bonus around, the option to resort to BS Attacks, competent Dodge or just might survive the hit on their defensive stats.
    High PH has more impact on CC as well to make your hits stick. With CC's high crit rates and autowounds gone, this matters a lot. PH12 with MA4 is DAM15, but so is PH14 with MA2.
    Compared to a Zuyong stuck at PH12, no template/shotgun on most Profiles and lacking CC quality most Knights (especially Magisters/Santiagos) are significantly more durable against. A very nice side effect here is MO Paramedics are more reliable than Doctors without Command Tokens.

    The sole real fire superiority package in MO is the Montesa Tik. BS15, Mimetism, AP DAM16. The next best thing is Core Linked Mobility Joan's Spitfire, or a Hospitaler HMGs requiring a quite expensive Link each. After that we're down to BS14 Spitfires, they get the job done, but they're nothing special in a world with Vet Kazak AP HMGs, Karhu Feuerbachs, Grenzer/Bolt/Kamau MSRs, Cutters and Avatars. Still, MO has its own brand of devastating fire superiority with Coordinated PFZ+MLs to clear about any threat for a steep investment once or twice a game.

    Hacking screws MO hard. Yes we still have Stealth, but you can't fight and Stealth, pretty much everyone who can should run a Sixth Sense LI Hacker in their Core and we're lacking in KHD and Firewall department. The Santiago KHD is nice and efficient, but it's on the lower end of both WIP and BTS. DeFeresen's suffers from lack of Frenzy and link options. He's not bad, but expensive and hard to fit in a Sectorial that has to make tough choices.
    Trinitarians help out a lot, providing almost perfectly minmaxed unhackable forward presence on Specialists.

    A rather well hidden but noteworthy change in N4 is that MO didn't get 6-2 HI aside from the KOJ. We're now the slow guys. Domaru, Tanko, Brigada, Riot Grrrls, most of YJ's HI and PanO's own staple, Orcs, are all 6-2 now. That's free Order efficiency that would have really helped some of the more CC oriented and less optimized Knights. It pushes Knights into their role as medium ranged gunners, rather than close range Assault troops.
    If you want to run at things and do it well, Sval just does it better with full 6-2 Links sporting C+, a devastating array of weapon choices on multiple platforms on top of heavy defenses and a CC capable platform. The downsides here are lack of Trinitarians and some of the worst hacking capability in N4.

    In conclusion what's getting pushed as MO's core competence, their unique mix of medium range firepower, durability and CC, is barely functional in the framework of N4. So instead MO is better off to focus on their outliers as selling points to mitigate a weak core concept, Trinitarians, Magisters and Montesa Tik, backed by solid choices like Santiagos (including the AD gamble), KOJs and PanO's basic support troops.
    The result is a bit sad but quite functional, but has issues with filling roles, let alone fitting in redundancies or a wide range of Specialists. I'd really like to see the Knights more promoted. Mostly more "HMG" (wouldn't complain about Feuerbach or MSR, but that's kinda "not MO") choices and the odd AP Spitfire to compete with them. Profile tweaks to bring tools while running mostly HI and more permissive linkability to give some incentive for all the Knights.
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I don't think we are actually disagreeing here. It is fair to point out that it's more "toughness" rather than Armour, and that Wounds and PH both feed into that overall high survivability, but my point is that taking a licking and keeping on ticking is a MO strength.

    Yes, that's why I note it as a weakness. Still, the Tik, Montesa Tik, Seraph HMG, and Hospitaller HMG are really it for good shooting over 32". You can just about get away with ambush fire from a Trinitarian MULTI Sniper, but that's hardly an ideal active turn piece. Core linked Joan Spitfire, Teuton NCO Spitfire, Santiago Spitfire, Father Knight Spitfire (who can get a little further forward to get into 24" which can be good) and MSV2 Order Sergeant Spitfire are the next tier, but they are part of that "medium range" strength I noted.

    The threat of Hacking is fairly significant, but that's basically true no matter what now. Everyone is at risk from Hacking, as Targeted makes even middling AROs dangerous. Military Orders options to defend against it are solid, with only a few Sectorials clearly stronger, but every commander in N4 is going to need to know what their answer to a strong Nomad/ALEPH/Combined or, heck, even Haqq and Yu Jing, Hacking focused list.

    This is one of the things which I think will shift at least somewhat with the update. But, yeah, the Arm 3 N2 "fast HI" Knights missing out on 6-2 seems unfair. But Sval doesn't offer a strong HI Core or any of the other choices which make MO interesting, it is it's own beast and I don't think this comparison adds much to the conversation around MO.

    I'd argue that's very meta and table dependent, and that there are still plenty of solid Knight based builds. But I will come back to Fireteams first, then get into list construction. I think you are right that there are some solid lists to be built around the Tikbalang, Trinitarians and Santiagos ('though I am not sure MO is the best base for the Knight of Justice, there I think you are right that Svalarheima does it better). I'd just argue that there's more meat on these bones than the scraps you are chewing.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The frameworks really is the big part here.
    Prime difference in between a Sval Orc+KoJ+Karhu Core and a Magister+Santiago Core would be:

    Sval:
    • Linkability - can mix and match that with a Fusilier Fireteam basically with hardly any limits into a Core, Haris and Duo
    • Lt Situation - gets 3 Fusiliers for Lt shellgames that also fuel a defensive Core for the price of the usual MO Lt (and can still pick the KOJ Orc or Jotum option for Missions when necessary)
    • Heavy Weapons - has significantly more freedom on SWC choices, 2 Feuerbachs, 2 HMGs, 2 MLs a MSR and a Spitfire can
    • Mobility - as mentioned 6-2 and C+ on Orcs/Karhu are big
    • Order efficiency - NCO basically by default
    • Hacking - linkable unhackable combat troops are pretty important to have (6-2, C+, MSV1... Karhu are extra fair). Firewalled KoJ is amazing to just ignore Hacking and tank it, with the Engineer to make it go away if your defenses fail right next to him
    • In Link support - linkable amazing Engineer (and/or Paramedic, and/or Infirmarer for Doc support)

    MO:

    • Linkability - fairly rigid despite having theoretically lots of options around Magisters, which are awesome (Coordinated Panzerfausts, best defensive Link filler in the game, competent at CC, capability to generate free Impetuous Orders when the opportunity arises)
    • Lt Situation - you have options but they're all between a rock and a hard place, stick your Lt in your fairly aggressive HI Link, pick an obvious cheap HI and hide it in the back, take a CoC more expensive than your Lt or just go for Joan
    • Heavy Weapons - unless you shell out for a Hospitaler Core no HMG, variety isn't actually bad with OS providing HRL or MSV2 Spitfire if you want, problem remains how Rangebands and Vis Mods fail to line up for Active Turn use
    • Mobility - inside the Link you have the KoJ, which then is at odds with the rest of your Link
    • Order efficiency - unleashing the Magisters for free Impetuous Orders is free value, but situational
    • Hacking - as cool as the Santiago is he can take on a Skirmisher Hacker and that's it, WIP13 BTS3 with a Firewall only gets you so far, much prefer the choices Sval has to deal with it. Spotlight isn't much of a concern for a Firewalled Karhu when you consciously made the decision it's better than something else hitting your Firewalled Orc or KoJ.
    • In Link Support - kinda the "big downside" with Magisters is that you want as many Magisters as possible in the Link, likely 3 or 4, to keep the Link cheap and resilient against most things. Santiagos with their Nanopulsers, E/M Nades, 360 Visor, Firewall and KHD are good at what they do. Recovering losses is problematic, Doc support is there but likely outside the Link, same for the Engineer. Fillers that can replenish deaths are hard to come by after a turn one on ARO.

    I don't think Sval is a top shelf Sectorial either, for that it's too obvious and too susceptible against attacks on their Lt department. S Tier Links, F Tier Support, ends up somewhere in solid B Tier overall. MO sits somewhere next to it, that bonkers TAG, bonkers Hidden Deployment (Specialists) and bonkers Magisters carry the rest of the Sectorial hard.
    Conceptually speaking if MO had Fusiliers instead of OS and AVA3 Fugazi that wouldn't be as much of a problem, you'd have around 30 more points available to squeeze in another HI, Trinitarian or some support troops. Getting bullied into the Tik, not having the choice to go for the budget Lt, AVA1 Fugazi and 13 points for Linetroopers just makes it unnecessarily hard to make things work.
     
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  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I'm still confused about the part where you write off the Santiago KHD as insufficient to do its job, then praise Svalarheima which has no hacking anywhere near that quality (other than the hilariously expensive Father Knight Hacker, which MO also has).

    I mean, I'm no fan of Order Sergeants, but their Hacker is one of the better points they have going for them.

    I'll note that there'll be another article on Fireteams, I've always considered them a separate discussion from units on their own (especially now) so I'll be happy to have that conversation later.

    In the end, while I agree that Svalarheima can do some amazing stuff, I disagree that they are doing what Military Orders does better (except in the narrow specific case of the Father Knight Missile Launcher in Core, which Fusiliers are better for just because they are cheaper).
     
  6. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    One of my big current issues is that with magisters being so integral to fire teams in the sectorial and having other roles as heavy warbands. Losing stealth has made them more vulnerable to problem that has also escalated in prevalence...

    Again sure apples to oranges all we want but when I allow tanko to go wild in the mid field , I can safely ignore any non core linked hacking attempts until I'm ready to engage in my terms. Wip 12, bts 3 magisters getting potentially imm d against the super prevalent repeater nets of today is a huge downside . If the only danger was isolation I wouldn't even particularly care, they keep their order and still use impetuous, inconvenient but workable , but as it stands, they are a huge liability .
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Unhackable troops and Engineers are better solutions to hacking than the Santiago, simple as that.
    An Isolated Santiago KHD is pretty screwed. A Spotlighted Karhu Engineer that can climb on a roof to clean up the Hacker that just bounced off your KoJ or repair him if something got through is a lot better as far as answers to Hacking (and E/M for that matter) go.
    MO's tools for a Link to deal with a Hacker on a Rooftop are pretty limited. You basically need Dart with enough Orders to get there and clean up. And that won't help you with anyone eating an Oblivion/Jammer around the middle line.

    The OS Hacker is pretty terrible in N4 with WIP13 SMG Hackers or Veteran Hackers for similar Linetroopers. And ofc you're not taking a Magister Link when you bring one, unless you want to slot a basic OS Hacker into a Magister Link, which is possible but not something I'd do.

    It boils down to MO HI Links essentially slowly walking a Spitfire accross the board with maybe some CC attached. Sval gets to pick HMG/Feuerbach/Spitfire, can deal with Hacking/Jammers/Glue/Stunned significantly better and gets to freely mix and match their Links. All that while being able to use the CC component better due to C+ and being faster.
    Half your Link having 6-2 C+ is a defensive component as well, while no match for the raw numbers of Hyperdynamics/PZF/LSG, your positioning is a lot better when half your turn can climb up a rooftop and go Prone with the remaining guys being HI with SWC weapons to leverage the best spots.
    Having played a lot of MO Hi lInks in N3 it is a pain to put 5 guys somewhere where they can't get picked off one by one, don't allow templates to hit multiple targets at once and with Total Cover for who you don't want visible.
    A Sval aggressive "HI" Link is KOJ SWC, Orc SWC, Orc C+ Firewall and 2 Karhu. Only the 2 SWC guys have to find 2 spots on the ground and they don't have to be within 8" of another. The Core Linked Karhu Feuerbach is ranged punch worth bringing a Core Link for, several leagues higher than a Spitfire. How many things can fairly reliably down an Avatar or Jotum with Cover in 2 Orders and have C+ to punish S7 or anything thought hidden from any piece of terrain? Absolutely can't take a hit himself tho, in between BS13, MSV1, Mimetism and Blitzen/Feuerbach they are fairly good at selling their lives.
    Fixing MO's economy and Lt situation would free up the 30ish points that allows to comfortably fit Dart into a 15 Orders list with that Magister Link. Would be yet another mono build the same way Hospitalers + Magisters were, but at least it would work.
     
    #7 Teslarod, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Well, I'm working on the Fireteams article now, but I don't fundamentally disagree with you.

    But I haven't faced many hacking heavy opponents who haven't had at least one of them in a Core to negate Stealth anyway, so I guess I don't see it as the most massive shift.

    Well, nothing's unhackable now. And I've yet to run into an opponent with more than two hackers who wasn't running a Smart Missile Launcher to make Spotlight HURT if you don't burn the orders to remove it.

    I'll chat in more detail about Svalarheima in a couple of years after I've run them a bit, but from what I've seen facing them so far I'm not all that worried about their short ranged Haris' walking all the way across the table.

    Midfield Hackers don't have a lot of BTS, Trinity does the job just fine. You are massively overstating the problem in the Active. Why is that?

    Don't forget you can still screw over midfield hackers with "oops, one of the guys in the Fireteam forgot to be stealthy, want to reset?"

    What are you doing now?

    Are we comparing to PanOceanian sectorials, or not?

    Order Sergeant Hackers are still solid, especially now that they can go into a Fireteam (for the first time), what are you even on about here?

    And why are we suddenly assuming that aggressive Knight links aren't running Santiago, when did that happen?

    The Order Sergeant Hacker is a solid option to expand the options for a Magister Link, I'm not sure what your complaint here even is?

    Or a HMG.

    Or sitting back with a Missile Launcher.

    Lord, how narrow is your perspective here?!?

    I GET IT, you have a hardon for Svalarheima. Bully for you. Maybe think more about what MO can do, which includes some interesting Haris builds of their own.

    After all the complaining you have just done about MO Fireteams, you are going to sell something with two one-wound low armour targets to pick off easily as a great offensive option for crossing the table?

    I've seen the numbers on a Core ORC taking on an Avatar, they aren't "fairly reliable".

    Again, not sure what you are even looking for here.

    Isn't there a Svalarheima discussion happening for you to froth in?
     
    #8 AdmiralJCJF, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Again I don't think Sval or MO are in a good place, solid B-Tier looking at all of the Vanilla Factions from below for perspective. Simply played a lot of MO and playing some Sval, boy do they solve most of the issues MO's Links run into well.
    You're still getting punked by a Noctifier, your Link still gets picked apart one by one of your opponent can get to them. But overall? Sval>MO for aggressive Links, no question about it.

    Stealth doesn't work if you don't have it for the Order, either because you are a Magister and don't have it period, because the other guy has Sixth Sense or because you're a Santiago Spitfire trying to shoot something. The KHD can do nothing against a Shrouded Hacker sitting in Marker on a roof and MO doesn't have the Orders to blow 3 Orders on walking up a Sensor bot that then eats a free Oblivion Normal Roll for his efforts. It's down to table layouts that don't have terrain with a second level or Dart to pick up the slack for MO. And that's a massive problem in N4.

    Spotlight isn't half the problem Oblivion is. Spotlight on a secondary member of the Link team doesn't put a stop to your turn. Sticking Oblivion on any member of the team or worst case the only SWC pointman pretty much does. HI can get Spotlighted and blasted by Guided all the same, yet that rarely happens, apparently everyone agrees Oblivion simply has much higher impact given the choice.
    The difference in between Sval and MO here is Sval Links have easy access to multiple gunners to rotate in between, can chose to not be targetable by Oblivion, are more likely to get the thing with guided off its roof with 6-2, C+ and NCO for another Order and are less reliant on individual Link members for damage output.
    Spotlight is also a finite countermeasure, it doesn't stop you, it has no follow up on ARO and you can live with it offsetting Mimetism on a core Linked Karhu. If you're somehow stuck for multiple Orders eating free Hacking AROs that +3 is it without further risk.
    That's if the Hacking heavy setup even runs a source for Guided, which isn't necessarily true from what I've seen.
    With Regulars currently extinct, it's only Fusiliers vs OS, "might as well slot the 15 point Hacker into my 10 points LI" vs worst point efficiency LI Hacker in the game. Yeah the OS Hacker can finally link and couldn't beofre. Not sure how that redeems 13 points basecost LI next to 22 points Magisters.

    A Santiago KHD can't do anything about the basic midfield Hacker sporting Camo. Sure you can easily kill the Zero after it reveals, which gives it 2 Normal Rolls on 10s to mess with your Link, the Order it revealed on and the Order you try to kill it on, unless you break the Link for the second one. I'd prefer the same two Normal rolls on 10s with an Engineer in the Link. Against a Hacking heavy setup, lets say a Moran on a roof with 2+ Hackers behind it, the Santiago is gambling, Sval sends in a Karhu and maybe eats a Spotlight.
    Far from stoked about Sval, really. Probably never gonna touch them after NCA and SAA rejoin the fray. In between Varuna, NCA, SAA, ForCo and PanO Vanilla Sval and MO would rank last.
    Both MO and Sval are playable, neither of them completely dead or F-Tier like N3 Druze and Morats, that's it.
    Talking HI Links, MO doesn't have a viable Core linked HMG. Haris sure, TAG sure, Core nope.

    Karhu Feuerbach vs Avatar? 4 AP+DA dice on 13s vs 1 on 12, pretty good as far as taking on an Avatar without CC or Smoke is concerned.
    B4, MSV1, Mimetism. Probably the deadliest Active Turn piece in the game. About twice as deadly as a B5 BS17 Spitfire against anything low ARM affected by either Mimetism or MSV1, significantly more than twice as deadly the more resilient the target would be against DAM14 without AP.

    Pretty sure every Sval Core link runs one of them the same way defensive Varuna Core links run Kamau MSRs. Karhu are almost single handedly responsible for why Sval isn't just mediocre to begin with. And expendable.
    Worst case you have to settle for slotting KOJ, Orcs and Karhu into a Fusilier Core, if enough KOJ/Orcs/Karhu died to make an Orc Core impossible.
    Blitzen/Feuerbach and MSV1+Mimetism allow B2 AROs where Magisters have to Dodge, swinging BS Attacks by up to 7 points. C+ helps with Total Cover and CC protection. They're definitely A LOT more squishy than Magisters and so are Orcs if you need a Dodge or CC. Fortunately they're less likely to get stuck in a situation like that, deal significantly better with ARO threats in Active turn and outperform Magisters in Reactive BS FTF.

    Not sure why you would assume that but this isn't coming from a place of passion or anything for me.
    I'm neither fond of Sval nor MO. But IF I wanted to run an active (mostly) HI Core in PanO atm, it would be Sval every time. MO is something focussed around the Tik, Joan, AD Santiago or Dart. A Core Link walking across the board isn't their strong suit atm.
     
  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    Not that for hacking if one member "forgets "stealth the midfield hacker still ha option to do nothing if in camo, normal roll one of your non hacking members and eat the trinity or even still target your khd as it's aro will become valid as soon as your khd tries to hack it.

    I honestly been dealing with more and more midfield hackers, so it's why I've shelved magisters for the moment . They anchor my core link to odd spots, and have reduced functionality as throwaway missiles whenever they run solo, since now any old hacking device functions as super effective deployment zone guards vs the.
     
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  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Everything gets punked by a Noctifier, every single Fireteam in the game. That's certainly no point in Svalarheima's advantage here. Given how reliant that sectorial is on Fireteams in general I'd say it's actually a point against them.

    That seems to be the key point that you are ignoring in this discussion. Military Orders has excellent support for its Fireteams, Svalarheima does NOT. If you don't do it with a Fireteam then Svalarheima doesn't do it.

    You don't seem to understand the interaction.

    Yes, you can sacrifice a hacker to get an unopposed roll against one of the other Fireteam members, but that's not a great exchange much of the time.

    And if the Hacker is sitting there doing nothing while the Knights stroll past because he doesn't want his brain melted then your Santiago did their job.

    I love how you assume that Karhu can move up and kill midfield units with ease and no risk, but yet moving up a Pathfinder to reveal them is unpossible, despite the Remote being faster.

    You seem to have missed the key point here.

    Linkable Order Sergeant Hackers mean you can run one with your Hospitaller or Teuton Fireteams, not just back with a defensive Order Sergeant Fireteam.

    And you don't get to have it both ways here.

    Either Magisters are unusable trash which aren't worth fielding, in which case it doesn't matter what they cost compared to Order Sergeants, or they are still good and useful, in which case several of your other arguments fail. Please don't argue in bad faith.

    Yes, Svalarheima has an advantage here inside the fireteam. Of course Military Orders DOES have both Dart AND Trinitarians, which can do midfield combat well (better than anything Sval is offering). Sval has to move up a Karhu, costing orders, and risking running into a mine on the way, and deal with long range AROs interposed in their advance, it's no instant win.

    And, yes, Nomad heavy hacking builds will be difficult for Heavy Infantry based forces to deal with.

    And for TAGs to deal with.

    We clearly aren't going to see eye to eye on this at all if you are arguing the kind of Svalarheima list you've been describing is viable but a Hospitaller based Core isn't.

    Even under those ideal circumstances, and assuming your opponent can't get out of LoF after taking a hit, two orders to take it down is optimistic. And that's the problem with a lot of this, you seem to be assuming absolute best case scenarios for Svalarheima but the opposite for Military Orders.

    You have a strange definition of "expendable".

    Again, pointless theorycrafting into the narrow range of engagements where Karhu are perfectly better than Magisters strictly from an ARO perspective isn't particularly useful.

    And if Magisters are engaging in long range AROs then they are doing a great job, considering how much cheaper they are than Karhu!

    Sure, but if you do nothing then the Knights are strolling right on by you and the Hacker just failed to stop them.

    Midfield hackers aren't much cheaper than Knights these days, so a trade isn't the worst thing for the Knights either.

    And I wouldn't get too confident that "declaring illegal AROs is fine" ruling is hanging around past the first FAQ.

    That's fair, and they will be a "sometimes unit". I certainly wouldn't rely on playing them as "heavy warbands" in two lists at an event. But the lists which do use them tend to have a solid midfield of their own.
     
  12. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope for all that is holy , that the nonsense of declaring illegal AROs that then become legal goes away, but I dont think that is actually going to happen considering how much talk about that being the true intention there has been on FB, by some people who are within the inner circles.

    To be absolutely fair losing a midfield hacker to incapacitate a link member or potentially the pointman is a trade most would take.

    I think there are lists to be made with MO, but i dont think they are quiet up to part with some of the rampant bonuses some forces got in the edition. Like mentioned earlier, I think hospitaller cores might have to be back on the menu, thankfully they benefit from some discount even if santiago didnt.

    The crying shame is not having the order efficiency of heavily sprinkled TA, NCO and lt2 . Thankfully trinitarians are at least fantastic , so a hospitaller core with a santiago KHD supported by some trinitarians, is probably the only way i'd consistently run MO now, albeit there could be something to be said about a Tik+ order sgt core with KoJ ML + fixings, just not really my style of play even if it has potential.
     
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  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    So just some initial thoughts on order economy.

    MO can and will comfortably run 18 or 19 order lists in a 15 limit troop game with a significant chunk of that being 2W HI
     
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Could you post the kind list you use that accomplishes this? Its probably different from how everyone else is running MO.
     
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  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    I'll take a wild stab in the dark and guess that it involves counting Impetuous as Orders.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yes, and LT orders.

    Is that an issue? It shouldnt be given how much impetuous has changed
     
  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Ill see if I can find it. @RobertShepherd might remember it, I posted it in IA when we were discussing how skewed you can make the "15 troop" cap in n4
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I agree with @Skoll that Hospitaller core is back on the menu. Be it the cheap one with an HMG, an OS, Koni, a Lazarus and whatever you feel great to put here as a fifth member or the premium one with De Fersen, Santiago KHD, Hospi HMG (that you may want to skip if you're fielding a Tik), Hospi Doctor and KoJ ML.
    I've played about 15-20 games with MO in N4 so far (against all level of opponents from top players to average ones) and the few times I didn't played the Hospi core and won was when I played the OS core. TBH, the Magisters are nearly dead for me until they get reshaped. They can do a good job as home keepers, linked or not, but MO is already good at defending its own DZ (at least with how we do our tables in France or how are done those I played on TTS). And even then, a Guardian OS is cheaper and really good at this, even the HRL one.

    And I agree that MO struggles hard against an Avatar if you don't bring a Montesa Tik or against Nomad/YJ hacking but those are things other armies will struggle against and others will have an easy way to deal with them while struggling against what MO can put on the table.

    And KoJ is at home in MO. Be it the premium ARO option for any link or in duo with Joan V2, a Santiago KHD or a Bulleteer Spitfire. I tried once the forward Hospi Haris with the KoJ Spitfire in it. Definitely something to think about, at least when you're playing on huge DZ or on Power pack/Biotechvore. Sure, KoJ doesn't bring the same utility in MO he brings in SWF, but still, there are room for him to shine.

    TBH, as how powerful hacking is on HIs now, I can't see how Magisters and Teutons can shine outside of their niche Haris (a good one for countermeasures and Highly classified, though) in MO in general. Maybe it's just me and my playstyle.
     
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  19. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Well, given the challenges Magisters face in the emerging "hacking heavy" meta it might be.

    But you are probably right that now, more than ever, they are pretty close to being normal orders (especially if the coming FAQ confirms the more liberal readings of the new Impetuous rules).

    On the up side, active Lt's is one of the things MO actually does quite well.

    Nevertheless, I stand by my assessment of MO order pools.
     
  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I find the santiago KHD profiles and def fersen go a long long way to mitigating the hacking meta.
     
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