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Is LoF open info?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Oct 23, 2020.

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  1. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that the point?
     
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  2. BlackDiamond

    BlackDiamond My life is an uncoordinated order

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    This is 'it doesn't say a dog can't play basketball' territory then.
     
  3. iyaerP

    iyaerP Well-Known Member

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    It also doesn't say that I can't bring a glock and shoot my opponent in the face.

    And yet for some reason, I'm not doing that.

    It says when you check LoF. It does not say that you can check LoF at times other than that.
     
  4. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    It didn't occur to CB that people would argue that the active player is only able to look at the board during resolution of the order. I mean, it didn't occur to me, either.
     
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  5. iyaerP

    iyaerP Well-Known Member

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    That's not my position and it never was. Stop trying to strawman me.

    If you're just playing normal, it's pretty obvious.

    If you're leaning over to check LoF out of sequence, it is ALSO patently obvious what you're doing.

    Seriously, why is it so hard for you to play the game honestly as the rules are written. You don't need to cheat to be able to win. You can win playing honestly.
     
  6. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    So how much leaning os too much? am I allowed to walk around the table? am I allowed to bend my knees? what are you arguing is the practical limit on positioning of the player during the active turn?
     
  7. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    A dog can play basketball.. with difficulty.
    I mean the LAW states you can't bring a glock to shoot your opponent in the face.

    You still haven't shown where it states that only the reactive player can check LOF. You have just stated where it gives the reactive player the chance to check his LOF.

    @Vanderbane shoelaces are going to be prohibited in future tournaments. Strictly slip ons and velcro.
     
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  8. iyaerP

    iyaerP Well-Known Member

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    Just play the game like a normal person and stop trying to cheat.

    I don't have to prove a negative. If you want to try and argue that you can check LoF outside of where it is explicitly called for, find where in the rules it says that you can check LoF at any time.
     
  9. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Help me understand what that means, because as I have mentioned, as best I can tell, checking LoF during play for both active and reactive is exactly what a normal person does. You seem to be proposing something quite different, so I want to understand what your version of a normal person playing the game would look like.
     
  10. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    @iyaerP BERSERK ENTIRE ORDER Attack, CC Special Skill, Movement, Optional. REQUIREMENTS
    ► The target must be within the user’s LoF when this CC Special Skill is declared.
    ► The target must be within the sum of the user’s two MOV values.

    Does this mean that Berserk can never be activated, as we can never truly know if its within the active players LOF?
     
    #250 OCEE78, Oct 24, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
    Hisey, Zakalwe and Hecaton like this.
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @ijw @Koni

    If CB *really* wants to fence-sit on this issue, it would be extremely helpful if there was a note in the rules annex about there being two ways to play this issue. As it stands a lot of the "Gotcha!" players think that CB has chosen a side, and it's their side. If there's an explicit understanding of there being two ways to resolve this, then playgroups and event organizers can clarify how they're going to rule and handle things, so there will be less confusion. As it stands we're just getting a lot of friction; an explicit statement on this issue (even if that statement is "play it either way") has been needed for years.

    Also, if you do codify a non-intent playstyle, it'd be helpful to have official wording on exactly how far leaning down to get a model's eye view is illegal.
     
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  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I think a 45 degree arching of the back is a pretty fair middle ground. Maybe subtract a degree for every CM of height you are below 180, to account for the unfair advantage that shorter players may have in eyeballing line of sight illegally.

    Of course, we'd all have to wear harnesses to facilitate this by restricting back movement, but that would let us follow the rules and improve posture at the same time - total win win for everyone involved.
     
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  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I'm pretty much convinced at this point this person is a troll. telling others they're cheating by looking at the table, then likening that to murder is an elaborate troll.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's a troll job that CB takes seriously, apparently.
     
  15. iyaerP

    iyaerP Well-Known Member

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    I'm not proposing anything different than playing by the new rules. The N4 rules removed the clause that allowed LoF checking at any time. Under the new rules it is only checked in three places.

    The immediate response by everyone who's desperately trying to cling to play-by-intent has been "you can't stop me from cheating, i'll just check line of sight by getting a model's eye view while pretending to tie my shoe!" kind of bad faith arguments. Three separate people in this thread have made that argument already in this thread. If someone wants to cheat that badly, I can't stop them. I certainly can't watch them every moment of every match to ensure they're playing fairly. But it says everything that needs to be said about the willingness to play by the rules and have an honest and fair game that we exclusively have one side saying that they'll cheat and there's nothing that I or anyone else can do to stop them.

    Yes, berserk is broken as written. Welcome to the state of the thread 11 pages ago.

    Fuck off. I never said that. The rules explicitly say that leaning down to get a model's eye view is checking for LoF.

    When several people immediately say that "you can't stop me from doing it, i'll just lean down and look anyway" It's pretty clear exactly who is shitposting.
     
  16. BlackDiamond

    BlackDiamond My life is an uncoordinated order

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    Frankly, I don't think there is anything even to be had about leaning down period. It's not actually 'checking LoF,' per se. I don't think its even relevant in the grand scheme of things.

    What matters is that the set up in which you ask a player 'if I move X, can I see Y but not Z' does not work, regardless, because you can't know, in game terms, until the move is completed, and then LoF at that point is checked. Which is really the point. Nothing else has to be said about how much you can lean down or anything, it doesn't matter.

    It's not complicated, it's simple enough. Even if you did get down and 'check LoF' before hand, it changes nothing.
     
  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The ignore list has grown fat and heavy this day.
     
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  18. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    Do you see why its confusing to the rest pf us what you two are arguing for?
     
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  19. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Like you do not have LOF to some people anymore? How would you know before order resolution step 6? ;)
     
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  20. BlackDiamond

    BlackDiamond My life is an uncoordinated order

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    We are different people, and are arguing different things, in this case? I don't really agree with their interpretation of what constitutes checking LoF, and I don't think it matters really, for reasons I laid out.

    Edit: As a note, this is a general issue that seems to be a bit on both sides here, which is grouping all of a supposed side together as if there is a homogenized view. I have a view of what play by intent, at least in this thread, represents because someone wrote a good explanation of their view and it was liked by a number of participants.

    But I can only specifically speak to how I view things, in this case.
     
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