Yep, now the Koalas are a better tool for offensive actions. And at least no Nomads / Corregidor player will have to cry about the "overpwered" Kamau Sniper in Varuna anymore Back in the old days of N3 this was normally acieved by intelligent deployment and had the side effect of even better coverage. One can still send the Koala off in ARO but that might be deadly for the Moran which will result in a loss of hacking area.
The Moran change is real garbage. Contradicts the following things: - Jammers got nerfed because they're unfun to play against and stupid effective given they give no LOF AROs. An invisible Repeater that can be any Camo Marker is exactly that with Spotlight or worse if you're hackable. With real Infiltration and a lot more Camo Markers to hide in compared to Zulu Cobra and Heckler. - A potential Sensor gets hacked for free if you want to counter the counter using the counter. - The Moran doesn't get revealed from someone using his Repeater, so there's no counterplay by punishing the Repeater with a KHD afterwards, which wouldn't exactly be easy against a Firewalled Jazz or Interventor to begin with. - All in all this adds a whole other layer to the gotcha game Camo spam already is. Not even sure how to fix this. Probably either using the Repeater should reveal when getting used or be inactive until the Moran is revealed. As it stands not having any clear counter play contradicts the whole game philosophy. New Nomads look dope overall, don't need this shit for artificial Autopicks.
Nomads have plenty of "soft" weaknesses like limited durability or reduced unit overlap, whereas for example PanO has lots of "hard" ones like "No Warbands, Ever". The thing with the Nomad soft weaknesses is that a sufficiently skilled player can usually work around them pretty easily, whereas they hit newer or less knowledgeable players like a brick to the face. I'd argue that the middling Nomad ITS rankings comes down more to the relatively high skill floor of the faction than its skill ceiling- I've seen a really, genuinely good player doing things with Nomads that I don't think he could ever replicate with my NCA and its focus on better shooting numbers. The reference to Nomads constantly getting stuff comes down to the fact that they do actually get stuff with some frequency, about once or twice a year in my experience. Full Sectorial releases aren't going to happen anymore but you can bet Nomads will still see the odd unit or Character dropped in. You might be surprised, I'm actually not really against the new Moran all that much. Nomads are supposed to be pretty good at hacking and sneakiness, and you can play around it despite how powerful it is.
For you it "was" for us it "is". How about Kusanagi? Or Raoul? Or Perseus? Maybe early N3. Easy to say for someone with BS15 and WIP15 on mansized TAGs …
Well, I have seen good players winning with any army. The same way the newer/bad players can down the results for nomads, other factions have those kind too. Bigger player base means that the results are more stable. Also, if the faction were so good, newer players would have it easier than others, which is not true neither. There are some misconceptions when analysing data, but that is worth for an entire post nomads getting stuff every year... that is not true. We got 4 units with n3 release (bandits, grenzers, jaguar and kriza), which was an average number when n3 came. 1 more unit when bakunin was revised in n3 some time later, and then nothing more until tunguksa (some years passed), which was not so good compared to all other new sectorials. In miniatures, yes, I agree we have a constant flow of miniature releases, but not in rules, not new stuff, and not the ones with more releases either (that will be maybe for YJ, which has nothing from n1, and not much from n2, while we still have the biggest n1 and soon n2 number of miniatures). Bakunin has been left with only a haris revision in n3, even all observancy got fewer revisions in their cost (after the religious troop point change) than just one single pano unit! (bolts), and TJC had to wait 2 years to see their lore because their release was rushed and incomplete (And was not fixed anyway when the lore was out, making us to wait for n4). So no, nomads don't get new stuff with higher frecuency than other factions. Of course, I am not saying we are at the end of the line neither, that would be poor tohaa, but pano or aleph got more new stuff during the years than nomads, be it new characters, or revision of stuff.
Please stop with this nonsens logic. Several people on this forum knew exactly how a Kamau Sniper would turn out in practice. Several (although not that many) people knew exactly how Dahshat would turn out as soon as they saw the AVA chart and the Special fire teams chart. Same with Karikuri's with TI or McMurder and so on. I don't understand this mindset that somehow it's impossible to tell that something is going to be wrong/powerful just by looking at it. And "just looking at it" is not even the correct term for it, it's looking at something and using game knowledge combined with experience and often math/theorycrafting to make an educated guess. Sure, that's not always entirely reliable but truth be told N4 isn't really functionally different than N3, a lot of fuzzy details are new/changed but the core of the game is entirely the same. @Savnock Yes, I should take your advise and don't start/reply to threads when I'm tired and just got off work.
Erh, that's simply not true. What makes Nomads (vanilla at least) a very strong and competitive army is due to factors that are not at all apparent or intuitive for a new player, as well as the fact that Nomads is not a forgiving army to play either. The best way I can compare this is for example with two archetypes of Hearthstone. You could give a new player a S-tier Control Warrior deck or and you could give a S-tier Hunter Aggro deck. Even when both decks are insane S-tier decks, the newer player would ALWAYS win more games with the aggro deck and perform poorly with the control deck, because he does not understand the game mechanics of his deck, when to save removals, what to counterplay and so on, while the aggro requires no other skill than to count your mana crystals and vomit your deck on the board.
Are you more upset about midfield Repeater spam, or is it the fact that it's attached to a camo marker?
It's the invisible part that fucks up the counter play. There's next to no way for most people to dig it out if it starts entrenched somewhere on a roof. The Moran doesn't have to start with Koalas on the table keep that in mind. You can look at a table and see 6 camo markers scattered around the middle of the table at the start of the game, and you have no idea at all where the repeaters are. So you have to stumble blindly into them and get whapped by really strong incoming hacks that are in all likelyhood, better than any you can return serve with. Then to make matters worse once you've identified which camo marker is causing the problem, you can't actually dig it out with any kind of attack unless you possess a source of unhackable climbing+ or superjump that can reach the top of the building. It requires intense order useage to dig them out, which isn't feasible under tactical window. In N3 I could try to deal with the situation by ramming warbands at it, making Kuang Shi scale buildings to explode on them and shit. You don't have disposeable combat groups anymore. Is it going to completely fuck up the game balance? Maybe, maybe not, we'll see. There are a couple of factions that will handle it much better than others like ISS can probably trivially blow this off, but there are far more that will struggle to find effective options in their arsenal. Is it fucking horrid N3 Ghazi tier levels of game design that makes everyone who has to play against it blow their brains out? Yes.
That's why ISS can probably handle this pretty decently. They have a core link that brings an unhackable sensor and a Grenade launcher to delete the Moran with. But that's a very specific thing to have, you're not gonna find most people can bring this. The common source of Sensor REMs isn't really good here because it's hackable which gets it wrecked trying to get into range to use the sensor (RIP sniffers btw), and it's fairly niche. Not everyone can justify putting it in their list and just because you have the Sensor it doesn't mean you'll also have the required tool to then dig the Moran out if it's hiding somewhere tricky.
Sen...sor? Sensor... Sensor! What the hell is that? Hey, pal, we don't like it here! It's not like you can throw a sensor in a small second group just in case and use 5 orders on a (somewhat) disposable rem to clear the path. I had my ass handed to me once by a bloody tohaa 10-point sensor dude. The whole mass camo list just boop. Yeah, not the best solution, but since combat jumpers and parachutists are non existent for op, who knows... Just to be clear, how do people expect to deal with camo otherwise? What about camoed cheerleaders on the roofs? What if it's a heckler with jammer inside, is it outrageous enough? What if that a minelayed repeater on the roof? Is it brokenly op now too? Cause you can't get to it from the first floor and grenade launchers apparently don't exist. As dreadful as it sounds, that would be at least 120 points. On a pretty squishy one wound dudes. AND you'll need at least 3 hackers to hack everyone like everybody post here. And that doesn't leave too much points for heavy hitters, so a good infiltrator/TR bot/bad dice will just force an enemy to stay defensive letting you run the missions.
I really want to see this 6-camo-token CJC list that also has enough (linked for Sixth Sense) hackers to actually put up this impenetrable barrier. At 400 points, maybe... but you'd need 2 Morans, 2 Bandits, and 2 Sombras. Then at least two hackers in a 5-man. Let's call it an Alguacil link to keep things cheap. Please tell me where the points (and SWC) are in that list to field any moderately frightening shooters other than probably one of the Sombras. It's a one-trick pony list that would suffer heavily against sensor, MSV, and LI/MI lists. It couldn't fight its way past any decently threatening AROs. I'm not arguing that repeaters under camo tokens may not be somewhat broken. I do know that none of my opponents ever really bothered to take out prone Morans on a building top when the Morans didn't have camo, and they would have had to invest an excessive amount of orders to do so even when they didn't have camo. Morans are much stronger, but I'm not quite sure the sky is falling. What would make sense is that the Moran would have to reveal when a hacker uses the repeater. We'll see what happens. People will develop counterplay regardless, and CJC won't be as frightening as some are thinking if it has to lean that heavily into the camo repeater gimmick.
Sensor: PanO: Zulu-Cobra: Forward Deployment 8", Sensor. Also, the Regulars when they come out the paint shop should still have it. Ariadna: lots and lots of Antipodes. Wait, why do they care? Oh dear, I've wasted points spamming this and now my Morans are lunch. CA: those Hungry things Spiral/Tohaa: Chaksa. Wait, why do they care? Aleph, O-12: Devas Nomads: Grenzers Avoidance: Stealth Be in a marker state* Deletion: Super-Jump/Climbing Plus: pretty much every faction CrazyKoalas Drop Bears (Monstruckers - nearly any Vanilla faction) Just AD/Infiltrate/Motorbike in and kill their Hackers Capitalisation: CJC players are now very predictable, so build your lists to counter that while their 6 units get bypassed. So there are options. *The rules seem to imply that markers are unhackable.
For some reason I was under the impression Bandits had minelayer profiles, but you get my point. The opponent is stuck playing butthole roulette with camo markers to try and figure out what might have a repeater under it. Once they figure out what's under there they need a very narrow band of tools that they may well not have access to to then remove it, like you said it was annoying to do even before you had to burn orders trying to get rid of the camo. Like I said, it may not turn out to be bulletproof but it is fucking horrid N3 Ghazi tier levels of game design, and we just finally nerfed those fuckers.
So here's the problems you're overlooking Perimeter weapons don't do anything here. They require the Moran to ARO. The Moran can just sit there, he's not AROing the hacker at the other end of the table is. More importantly just because a faction has access to something doesn't mean it's in their list. You're demanding that everyone make sure every list they run has a very particular set of counter play otherwise they will find themselves being hard countered. This is not a good type of thing to start propagating into a game system because you will reach a point where players will be forced into list chicken, something that ultimately plagued Warmachine for a long time.
That makes more sense. Minelayers would change the equation and I'd agree that would be problem-causing levels of shell games. I'll wait to play a few games before agreeing it's Ghazi-level. Ghazi interacted with everything in the game, with no effective counter. If it isn't hackable, the CJC player has invested a *lot* of resources into just being able to put things in the targeted state, and they probably lack the right shooters necessary to take full advantage of that. It is a hard counter to HI/REM/TAG lists. That said, pretty much any CJC list will be until people figure out how to handle N4 hacking. People will complain that CJC is broken, and not just because of the Morans, after they start getting games in. That won't be right, though; they'll just need to adapt to N4, because we're not playing N3 anymore. If the camo repeater becomes so ubiquitous and difficult to deal with that it makes CJC unplayable any other way, and guarantees that opponents don't have any real counterplay, then I'll jump on board (and support my above-stated fix: make the trooper with the repeater reveal when a friendly hacker uses the repeater).
Jammers have limited ammo now, 2 shots and you're out. Repeaters don't shoot you in the face when you climb up there with something unhackable to remove them, they're far less obnoxious.
Oh, but he can try to jamm you twice on your way and put a fast panda for hacker too! And that is fine, right?
Yes, the limited ammo makes it fine plus it's a singular ARO not fighting multiple people at once it's far less dangerous. The fastpanda also can't be deployed in ARO without LOF to the active model, so it can't be used in this instance.
