Can we talk about this?

Fair enough, I've never played a game of Infinite.

 

if the enemy gets aroed so much from a single spot, then:

• he is bad, directly
• he is losing the game allready, so he is doing risky moves
• he has a bad/unprepared list, a lot of non-hackable, but also non-utility dudes so he cannot hunt down that repeater, and non-stealthed ones or smoke to go near objective (in the end, usually it will not matter he is targetted, if he is not beign shot back and cannot be affected any other way)
• he has not KHD...if he is hackable from it, he can hack trought it!
• a combination of the above

But don't worry, I am sure this is something they forgot to check and will be errated soon

 

1:No, for reasons that shall be explained.
2: Morans sit in the midfield, directly adjacent to the scoring objectives and through which most of the enemy team mast pass if they want to attack your pieces. Getting into midfield is how you start the game, not a measure of how much you are losing it. It is risky, but this is intentional because it is how you progress the game.
3: A list that can't deal with a roof camo Repeater and backup isn't a bad list, it's nearly every list in the game! Nomads and Corregidor can handle Smoke now thanks to MSV1 changes, and the list of unhackable C+ or Super Jump troops isn't too wide. Even most Vanilla factions are down to a narrow field of units which can win a fight with a roof Moran, with Ariadna's dogs probably being the best while Uma Sorensen is basically PanO's only feasible answer, and a pretty bad one at that. Anything without a vertical movement skill grants an uncontested ARO shot to the Moran, who will almost certainly hit thanks to Spotlight. A bowl-shaped board alleviates the roof Moran problem, but turns the game into a snipe-off.
4: The problem with using KHDs as the answer here is that high BTS hackers are actually quite strong now, especially with Firewall modifiers from Repeaters. Interventors only take damage from Trinity on a 2 or lower, with slightly better results if you have an Upgrade to Trinity or if you are using Oblivion from a HD or HD+ instead. Mary Problems is pretty much the only Hacker in the game that can take on an Interventor or Tinbot'd Jazz through a Repeater with any semblance of efficiency thanks to her AP Trinity.
5: Yep, a combination of all of the above factors is why Morans are a problem with the constant AROs they grant for free.

It's not all doom and gloom, but Morans are still game-warpingly strong. Usual answers are going to be AD kill-squads and Impersonators tearing through the backline Hackers supporting him, then setting up hard ARO to pin the guy.

 

well, that will deppend on the tables. Almost all tables I've seen with rooftops near objectives, also had other buildings with LoV to the first ones, so there were ways to discover and hunt down any camo in those roftops without the need of C+ or SJ. I stand on my points

if the player is bad... well, they will do random things, and one possibility is entering nonstop in an area where he can be targetted nonstop
if the player is loosing, he might enter nonstop trying to make the objective ignoring the targetted status
if he has an unprepared list because he is non-hackable (no stealthed/camo units to ignore the repeater, no C+/SJ to hunt down the moran, no sensor to discover it and kill later with an speculative), the he did a bad choice. There are a lot of ways to deal with hacking without using hacking. A lot. That's why last edition hacking had only impact in a few sporadical games even if it was an expensive tool
if he has no KHD to hunt down hackers but has hackables, is a list dessign problem on his part, we were talking about non-hackable lists anyways, so I can suppose that, in that case, he valorated the possibility if he had the option. So he just had to think ways to deal with that kind of problem
and of course, there can be allways a combination of the above, but any of those, by themselves, are enought for it to be a problem from the one suffering hacking, not because the moran's player

remember that we are talking about someone that is getting a lot of miniatures in targetted state, because he is denying the strong options to the enemy

 

This strikes me funny. N4 is out for how long? 4 days? Most of us perhaps have not even played a single game of N4. But the Moran is already "game-warpingly strong"? You mean like … Vanilla Nomads and CJC popping to the top of every tounament? Winning next Interplanetario? Nomads taking over the world?

Why not give it some time? Yes, a Camo repeater is strong. But a normal repeater on a roof top does the same Job and is not Nomads exclusive. At least not last time I checked. So … let's wait and see.

 

Nomad player here. The Moran changes make them way too strong. I'll be focusing my play on determining exactly how exploitable this is, and what the solutions are.

You definitely don't need to have played through much (I'm one game in N4 so far) to see how much of an issue upping the strength level of the already-vital Morans is, alongside big buffs to Oblivion and Spotlight (between them, you can hit anything coming through that repeater net and make it either easier to kill or effectively hobbled).

@Zewrath is being a bit OTT because he's pissed (chill out bud, it will help your argument), but having watched him level tourneys full of other players via very focused use of exploitable extremes in the game, his opinion on this matter is probably a sign that there is legit something wrong with it in balance.

What is more productive than "nuh-uh"-ing right now is to suggest possible solutions or ways to address this.

Also, if anyone with rules input is reading this ( hi @HellLois hi @ijw ), the camo repeater issue needs a clear ruling and it is definitely going to matter for reigning in this potentially very broken and un-fun Nomad press-and-play problem. And I say this, again, as a Nomad player. I can see that the logic points to the repeater working in camo state too, but that would NOT be good for the game in this case.

Things will still be challenging and Morans totally worth the budget if their repeaters have to be revealed to hack through them... but if they don't have to be reveled (so can't be picked off without also requiring many orders to Discover first), it's a no-effort roadblock that is way way too strong.

 

there is one simple and easy solution: when using a repeater, it is revealed, as in n3. Simple and clear. I think that will be add as a cause for cancelling camo soon.

what some of us are no agreein is on the "power scale" it has. Oblivion is not "stronger" (easier to pull, easier to take out, in the end is more or less the same), the only reason hacking might be more important, is because HI got way cheaper, making hacking more of a necesity. But we will see in a few months (maybe corregidor will get at the top...but because all factions got those point reductions, I doubt it will be so clear, and of course, the other 2 sectorials will not jump so ahead, but people will negate it, even when there are numbers to check)

 

This is a good solution. It does require adding to the rules though, which hopefully will be done.

If they decide not to change anything just to avoid changing anything, unfortunately the RAW support the camo token staying camo and the repeater working through it.

It would be silly not to make a small change to address this problem, but when you've just published a large book of rules it can be tempting to try any solution that means you don't have to add addendum or otherwise mess up your freshly-printed physical rulebook.

Let's hope the better decision is made.

 

the new moran is just a monster now, makes no sense for me

corbus belli tried to make hacking more important, but i play other factions( aleph for example) and i cant begin to compare with nomads in hacking, i just have 1 pitcher, almost no repeaters and 0 deployable repeaters in mid table, i suppose its the same for the other factions. I just dont understand why nomads are so far ahead in hacking

 

They are promoted as THE hacking faction, no?

 

sure, no problem with that

but if nomads are the best hacking faction, then give to them a good weakness, but they have good gunfighters, tags, smoke, MSV, good infiltrators, good aro pieces,great remotes and of course the best hacking in the game

for me nomads without hacking is just like yujing pano, or any other faction, nomads with hacking (even more so in N4) are the best faction by far

just my opinion guys

 

I had a hearty laugh reading all that nonsense about scary haxx0rz (wow, an aspect of a game finally semi-relevant!!) and zero words about new koalas which are the real game changer for morans

oh well forums, never change

 

The fact that only one Koala per Moran will be present on the table makes no big difference... now the cheap minesweeping trooper has just fewer ARM saves to pass ;)

 

truth is, we have seen all n3 that kind of mindset of "nomads are good at everything"...but the numbers showed that nomads were not so good (but complaints about nomads will keep appearing, even if there is proof negating their "opness"). Nomads have good units, that's for sure, but most of them are expensive for what they do (specially compared to pano, see those MSV2 with mimetism at 32 points... and look what we have for that cost). Are they bad? definitelly not, but they have been far from top until now... we will see if they are that "top" now with the revamp

 

Safely deploying a koala from a midfield under enemy aro piece to trigger in a shootout is pretty huge

 

A lot of the complaints come from the fact that Nomads have far fewer hard weaknesses than nearly all other factions (pretty much their only deficiency is command skills like Strategos or CoC), so when they keep getting stuff that is almost as good as a specialist faction's option (or in some cases, better) it raises a few hackles. Nomads are a genuinely good faction, and will certainly be an instant top-tier option if this Moran thing isn't errata'd quickly- not being able to take out the midfield Repeaters means that Vanilla Nomads will be almost impossible to challenge with anything Hackable on many tables while their backline is intact, requiring Kamau levels of system knowledge and workarounds to get anything done. It's going to force people to get a lot better with Marker management in midfield, promote a big boost in AD popularity, and make people invent any number of neat tricks I haven't figured out yet.

 

Oh, oh, I see it now. Now no one will be able to trigger both coalas at once and you can place another. Boy, what a buff to Nomads!

What? They also have no weaknesses now? How about:
Almost no NWI untill recently (and still like 3 of them)
no msv2 other than intruder (until very recently)
average BS, average wip en masse
no CoC; very obvious leutenants, some cost swc with no advantage; no LT2; no more camo lt
bots are good, I guess, but they pay in points for that. I'd gladly swap 360 visors and arm for cheap msv2 or ODD

 

NWI? nomads have HI with 2 wounds, now with sombras and evaders.. you want more? for me a weakness is having NWI but no inmunity shock like 80% of steel phanlanx in N3, having a heroe of 40point cost being killed by a moron with subfusil.. that was a big weakness.

yes, only one unit with msv2, but now you have more. (also the intruder is a top tier unit)

i dont see how having average BS and WIP is a weakness.

about CoC.. thats true, nomads has no CoC, you want it too? im sure they will get it sooner or later so..
and in my opinion not having CoC in a faction isnt a big weakness

 

there have had a lot of weaknesess, as explained Lucian, but also their strong points are not so strong (or more like they usually are more expensive than in other places). As I said, numbers of pasts ITS are out there, and nomads got not so good numbers. Also, that "They keep getting stuff"... as if we were aleph getting new character every year! All factions had got new units when they are revised, and seems now is the turn for nomads, as before was for pano, yj o12 or ec. Remember also that nomads are going to be limited in options from now on thanks to the limit to 3 sectorials, so they will not "keep getting stuff".

I agree that the camoed repeater stuff is out of place, and I am sure they will fix it, but repeating the "nomads are op, they don't need this" mantra again and again is what left nomads underworked past edition, and is tiring to be receiving people in the nomad subforum telling us "your faction is op" while we get medium table results

who said anything about wanting more? we have 3 characters with NWI that don't have SI, so what is the problem? we have that weakness too

the intruder top tier....he was, in n2. He is not so good anymore (that's why is not so used).

and no, CoC or lieutenant skills will not come to nomads. We are lucky to get a few NCO