When a Trooper with both MSV1 and Sixth Sense (say, due to being in a Fireteam) BS attacks through a Zero Vis Zone (eg smoke), when does a -6 mod apply (due to the MSV1) and when does no mod apply (due to the Sixth Sense). Does it make a difference if the MSV1 + Sixth Sense model is being BS Attacked back? If so does it make a difference, who declared the BS Attack first? Are there any other relevant factors?
Reading through the Sixth Sense rules my conclusion is this: the smoke area does not stop being a Zero Visibility Zone just because the trooper has MSV1, thus Sixth Sense cancelling the -6 takes precedence and the MSV1 trooper with Sixth Sense will be able to shoot back at +/-0 MOD from the Zero Visibility Zone.
For me the relevant factor is: ► If the user is the target of a BS Attack through a Zero Visibility Zone, they ignore the -6 MOD for responding with a BS Attack. it's not so much that it calls them out as responding, but that it calls out a very specific mod, and that is the mod applied by the zero vis response rules. If an MSV1 trooper with sixth sense uses his MSV1 to fire through a zero vis zone before he has been targeted by an attack, he applies a -6 mod, but that is a -6 mod for using MSV1 to see through zero vis zones, it's a different mod and it's not the mod that Sixth Sense tells you to ignore.
The question is, are these penalties separate, or does the latter mean to restate the former: Zero Visibility Any Trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into, through, or out of a Zero Visibility Zone may respond to the attacker, provided the Trooper is facing the attacker. ► However, in this situation, the Skills the target can declare in ARO, or as the second Short Skill of their Order, are limited to BS Attack with a -6 MOD, Dodge without the MOD, or any Skill that doesn’t require LoF. And Multispectral Visor Level 1 Additionally, it allows the user to draw LoF through Zero Visibility Zones, applying a -6 MOD to any Skill that requires LoF. By my (tired, excessively caffeinated) reading, if the penalty referred to in MSV L1 is intended to be the same penalty as the penalty for responding to an attack through a zero visibility, then sixth sense applies. But if it is meant to be a different penalty (which may be the case, since a multispectral visor user would not ever be in a situation where it is required to invoke the rules for responding through zero visibility, because it can draw LOF through zero visibility zones), then sixth sense only functions to cancel a penalty it isn't suffering but doesn't help it with one it does. In the interests of not having an interaction in the game that makes new players think I've betrayed them, I'd argue that Sixth Sense lets a linked MSV1 trooper shoot at no penalty if only because I don't want to explain why a riot grrl shoots and dodges better against attacks through eclipse smoke than normal, but this is worth clarifying.
Is it that bad? An attack through Eclipse can only be a whole order skill (intuitive or speculative). If the Riot Grrl is targeted by an intuitive or speculative attach through regular smoke, she'll also, I think, get to shoot back without the -6. She's not shooting using her MSV, she's shooting using the "fire back through smoke" rule and applying SS to cancel the penalty usually applied when using that rule. At least, that would be my preferred reading I think. The challenging case is where the active trooper has MSV as well, and Idles behind smoke for its first action. Now, the Riot Grrl has LoF due to her MSV, so she has to declare her BS attack right away instead of in response to being shot at, and will presumably suffer the -6 penalty even though the active trooper now shoots at her for his second skill. It's a weird interaction, but as far as I can tell it doesn't have a parallel with Eclipse. This one makes my head hurt.
Substitute eclipse for white noise in my anecdotal point above, if you like. Either way though it's a piece worth clarification because it does genuinely feel like it could be played both ways.
You're right, of course, but I realized the solution to your problem of explaining the interaction to new players: show them the lightsaber training scene from Star Wars! The Riot Grrl just has to let go her conscious self, and act on Sixth Sense.
May I put my interpretation? I think that the truth is hidden in what is the trigger for each rule and I cannot imagine a situation when they both stack. SS is triggered when unit is under attack, MSV1 allows LoF trough ZVZ with -6 MOD. (1) If unit equipped with MSV1 and possessing SS is attacked with first short skill of the order or entire order skill, then it can legitimately use SS and have no penalties. (2) If unit equipped with MSV1 and possessing SS has an opponent activating in LoF (due to MSV1) with short movement skill, it cannot wait for being attacked to use SS and if forced either to ARO with -6 MOD, or forfeit ARO opportunity. And when it is attacked with second short skill it cannot trigger SS because it has already used opportunity to ARO.
How would the "all-at-once" rule work here, if at all? I think this may have similar outcomes based on the Dodge + Move interaction.
@ijw Has there been any news on a ruling for this? Would this be the place to keep an eye out for that ruling? Thanks :)
Looks like currently they are focusing on unit data fixes, including editing profiles where issues have arisen (camo / impersonation + repeater shenanigans, etc). I imagine it’ll be a little while longer before we get to more general FAQ stuff.
Well, I'm not sure if that condition is legitimate or not. Sixth Sense should allow the user to react also against enemy troopers with Stealth even when they are not being attacked, but the condition interrupts this effect. So, maybe we should wait for wholesome rules repair :P
N3 had persistent problems with sixth sense having a requirement that said the model had to be the target of an attack paired with effects clauses that need to be applied before an attack is declared in order to meaningfully function. It’s the sort of rule that is easy to describe but hard to nail down.
Sixth Sense doesn't have an ability to ignore Stealth, making it subject to being attacked. Rather Stealth has the limitation that it doesn't work against models with Sixth Sense, regardless of if there is an attack.
Also it would be pretty weird if having a visor that lets you see through smoke makes you more vulnerable to attacks through smoke. I'd like to think they've already considered this and it's an easy answer. But given the delay, maybe not?
TOs currently trying to figure out which way to rule this knowing someone's gonna bitch at them for it @HellLois plz help
