It depends on it's purpose, an immobile fireteam desires being more survivable than anything else especially if its carrying the ML and hiding the LT, because it is a defensive castle team first and everything else second (at which point the secondary heavy weapon is probably a waste of points). Which is different to a pure assault team or a tool box team. The team i was talking about (toolbox) is more about rushing the objective cards while also buffing a good gunfighter, at which point providing I've manged to swing enough to give myself a good lead being survivable is a secondary concern. As they have to make a choice either waste time and orders engaging my fireteam and ignore the mission essentially allowing me two turns scoring or to try and catch up on points which means they ignore the team. The team I've been testing that has also performed surprisingly well is; spitfire WC, Engi WC, Daktari, and either a hacker WC or Jazz (still havent quite figured out which is the better option yet).
I see your point about the second SWC Weapon. I toyed with it and got it to the below list, Thinking about the full WC link, with 2 bandits as 1st turn order soakers, and the possibility of reforming a Jaguar full link in turn 2-3 to push forward with Lupe. And a mandatory Intruder to sort out problems through smoke. Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 1 WILDCAT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (2 | 20) WILDCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24) WILDCAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19) WILDCAT (Number 2) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) JAZZ FTO . (0.5 | 18) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) BANDIT Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 25) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42) GROUP 2 6 1 BANDIT Boarding Shotgun, E/Mauler / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 26) LUPE BALBOA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Panzerfaust, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23) JAGUAR Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 13) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) STEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
Exactly that. I cannot describe it better. I think about all those times I was looking for "the coolest list I ever made (TM)" only to find out I was about 7.5 or more SWC points, and I had to start from scratches again, in order to see what I can save of it. Only to end up with a complete different setup from the one I started from. I know your pain. As a totally personal choice, I still prefer having one if not two "ablative wounds" into a fireteam, that to avoid situations where the first man down it will also be a key piece that I will need to replace somehow. I got the idea behind the two heavy weapons, still the fact I can make use of them mostly in the reactive turn, does make me doubt about the real effectiveness of such a solution. I am still of the opinion that for one long ranged heavy weapon, I must have something else that will have to work on the short range, but having all the eggs in the same basket does not make me feel comfortable, in the first place. [...] Making the required preface regarding the fact I already got an answer to that, I still would like to take the opportunity to ask what it is your experience ( if any ) having played two fireteams in the same list, as for example an Haris and a Core ? I got the idea it is more ideal than a solution that it will work, still I cannot stop thinking it might come to hand having such an option. Is that just the assumption of someone that never tried it before ?
I am still in the position of who struggle to get the stempler's sensor work. I have to say I did not tried it for more than an handful of games, so that could also be the reason why. Still, I find for it very difficult to do what it is suppose to do, and most of the time ends up just being an order that I end up using for something else. Any suggestions regarding how to give that piece some justice ? The last game I had, recently, with a similar sort of Jaguar team, I ended up regretting the absence of one or two light shotguns. It might be something that will chance, in N4, but at the moment still having the chance of impact templating someone on the distance it does make those sort of weapon priceless. As for your experience, would Massacre an option that could be easily discard when it comes to build up a Jag fireteam ?
Jazz FTO and/or Dak is the 6th wheel of that fireteam, for when the HRL falls. Else I would have got Billie as an extra cheap order. About playing two fireteams, I have extensive experience with it while playing Invincible Army, but much less with CJC. I do like both, in the format of a cheap 5-man defensive link (that can push forward and do a mission once the SWC ARO piece is down) and an aggressive Haris that will blast things to pieces. But IA is a different beast to CJC due to TA pieces and order efficiency required to manage a 10-man team. In CJC, I think the Jaguar Haris is a good offensive piece. And there, if you have 3 points, consider the LSG Jaguar. Up close when you don´t want to simply trade with the Chainrifle, a BS11 with +6 is still shooting 3 dice at 17s. My main problem with CJC is that the Bandit is such a good solo 1-turn killer, that I don´t "feel" I need an offensive Haris (like I need in IA, but because a Haris-linked TA HMG is sweeeet). The Stempler, I am trying to use it more to open ways to incorporate a Sensor in my games. Advice from better players is required here :) I am assuming you mean about Massacre not being in the Jag fireteam... well, I learnt here he is not required, and TBH although he is good, I feel I would get more value from a Mimetim fully linked Combi at BS12 from Lupe, or the Panzerfausts, than Massacre´s Eclipse (which end up being his own individual trick along with EM grenades for me).
Current state (last days of N3!) this would be my take at a Full link + Haris. Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 TSYKLON Spitfire, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 31) MOBILE BRIGADA Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 40) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 13) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) SEÑOR MASSACRE (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 30) JAZZ & BILLIE . (0.5 | 24) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) BILLIE Flash Pulse, E/Mauler / Electric Pulse. (0 | 6) 4 SWC | 182 Points Open in Infinity Army
@loricus : Don't you think the example above does fit ? Having two heavy weapons and a couple of plain alguaciles, isn't the mix you are referring to ?
Loricus comments is appropriate in general terms. I think the Tsyklon is offensive there, offering at some point the option to morph into an attack fireteam when/if the ML is down. I do see the problems of moving the big-based remote offensively however. I just realized the HRL HC has Assault Pistols, that is great for short range engagements!
Correct. I would not use 2 heavy weapons and if I did the second wouldn't be the Spitfire. But experiences vary from player to player; the core concept of a stronger ARO troop with cheap filler to provide orders and bonuses is still there. I do sometimes switch to offense with the Core which is why I use the Feuerbach or, before mixed links, the Alguacil sniper. It doesn't happen enough for me to invest in a second weapon (for me). Yes, which is why I started using it in the Haris. I don't have room for the shotgun so that gives me a better weapon at that range. I found I wasn't engaging tough AROs with the Haris anyways so the HRL is good enough to win the F2F. I would consider the HRL a side-grade to the Spitfire except the cost reduction feels unfair.
Multirifles, a multirifle in a core is probably the best back up weapon you get your hands on, with out wasting SWC on a weapon that is going to be practically useless for the majority of the game. This is where the MR+LFT Brigada is perfect, especially considering it has a smaller foot print on the table which allows for more flexible placement of the fireteam (also means its a little harder for people to bounce shotgun blasts into your back line), and provides a real nasty piece of DZ defense. Also like I said before it means tyou aren't wasting somer of that precious CJC SWC on what is for the most part a paperweight. Moving a big based REM around the board isn't really a problem just a skill and considering it has C+ significantly easier, if you have trouble with maneuvering Rems talk to some of your local PanO players they tend to down right terrifying when it comes to the offensive use of combat rems. One of the main reasons why FB beats ML. The only secondary special weapon that I've found worth putting in the Aggie team is the LGL, and that is to mostly just scalpel out really obnoxious pieces that have dug in to places that are going to real costly/unfavourable to dig out.
I seldom leave home without some form of sensor, its too useful, and the one time I didn't take it I had to push through a camo spam line the old fashioned way, and it sucked. There's a couple things that need to unpacked on using sensor. 1. Opposing army. Whether or not it is going to be useful depends on what you're facing. Ariadna, Nomads, Yu JIng, JSA and SEF one or two good sensor pings could drastically change how that games goes. 2. Table sense. A skill that needs to be developed is looking at the table and figuring out where stuff is hidden, this usually informed by the opposing army, terrain layout and mission objectives, which will inform your decision on where to ping. For example you are playing against JSA in supplies, and there is a nice big piece of cover near one of the boxes pretty safe bet that there's a ninja in that general area (something that has happened in past games for me). While more useful against hidden deployment it is also useful for figuring out what is a mine/ambush camo and what is an actual model. 3. Sniffers. Sniffers are your friend, they expand the the sensor area massively and that includes the ability to re-camo so having a pair of transductors in a forward position to spread them around is a nonnegotiable must have. A pair of well placed sniffers can (and more often than not will) reveal a majority of a camo skirmisher line. 4.Coordinated Orders. Coordinating flash pulse bots up the table and planting sniffers is the quickest way to set up a net to reveal large amounts of the table as well as push the flash pulses into more favourable positions. additionally having it and the transductors hang out in group two with the rest of the support elements means you should have the orders to do it with out taking resources away from other parts of the list. 5. Don't unnecessarily expose the sensor itself. Moving the sensor bot up to sensor an area exposes it too mush as once it's down no matter how many sniffers you have they will be able to re camo again, for the most part it just needs to hide back in the DZ and do it's thing, unless it's embedded in an aggressive fire team (though this is more of a TJC consideration than CJC). 6. Cover the Transductors. You will need to shoot anything that will stop the transductors from advancing into position. This also has the effect of they will potentially need to start revealing things to stop them otherwise you will be able to get there and reveal a lot of their hidden information, either way you win. 7. Follow up. after you reveal stuff you need to make sure you are in a position to follow up with a means to kill as much of the pieces you have revealed as you can otherwise it's its just wasted effort. 8. Go first and alpha hard. This follows on from points 4 and 7 and more of a personal preference and that is to take first turn, push hard, and take out as many of the key pieces as you can and just ask the question "what are you going to do now?", hopefully you've put them enough of a back foot that you can dictate the tempo of the game. Additionally, doing first means you are doing when you have access to the most resources to take advantage of it, you have all your orders, the flashpulse bots and sensor bot are still alive, and you are in a position to disrupt their opening moves.
Yup, it made the 2SWC almost not feel like a ripoff. Enjoy it while it lasts though, because as of N4 that's gone. Nice (weird?) to see the old thread resurrected. I suppose I should start contributing again.
Certainly a lot to revisit in this thread for N4. I was optimistic after Bostria´s insistence that CJC was getting serious love, and the changes to armour and crits favouring MBs and to some extent the Intruder, but the Wildcat change leaves me cold. I *see* the potencial of a mobile Haris to compete with the Massacre Haris (and this one is a shooty one with MSV1), but I guess I just wanted them to be 4-4, adjust the HRL SWC and done. I didn´t need an ARM2 NCO 31pts Spitfire if I can still link a Tsyklon.
The Cobra Kai way is to run in shooting and kicking things without a plan. This is a playstyle for idiots and people without impulse control, and I am both. This is what Wildcats are perfect for, once they got MI upgrades, N4 more so. The Massacre Haris is a great example of this chaotic playstyle, but it's not so great at the button pushing or advancing through open firelanes (something even N2 Wildcats excelled at - thanks to Number 2 and BS13). Unit choices are more than the sum of their points. Tsyklon/MB is great, but then you have to pay for Hackers. They are also Hackable. You also can't go everywhere you could with say just a Tsyklon Duo. Unit choices also translate into cash money IRL purchases. I'd rather not grudge purchase one model to fill a gap. JSA and their assault REMs are a perfect example. The Brawler MSVL2 is another. Also, the Spitfire Wildcat is boss, unlike the wimpy-looking combis.
Within the scope of N3, I don´t agree (or rather, my experience is different). Massacre/Jaguar Haris is great to cross Open firelines due to Eclipse/Smoke grenades. Tsyklon/MB are great _in an Alg link_, and we have a great great cheap Hacker in Jazz, so it is hardly a liability. The Tsyklon laughs at being hackable, with a built-in repeater and our good hackers as coverage (becuase you are obviously taking Jazz AND a Bandit KHD, right?). Shooting ad kicking doors in is something the new Wildcats can do nicely, but a Mass/Jaguar link can also do it, at cheaper cost, with BIG templates and dogged and CC if they need to bridge the gap. They are vastly superior within close quarters, and the mid-long range option is covered by the linked REM. I dunno... nice to have options. Nice to have flamethrowers. Nice to have a linked Engineer. Just don´t see myself changing the CJC playstyle based on THIS profile preview. Let´s see the others!
There's not much to say about them in terms of use until we have a bigger picture. The NCO Spitfire is going to get used by me alone even if nothing else pans out. If Lupe can get in a link with them I will use them for that as well, especially a duo of Lupe+KHD if available. I hope Lupe gets total terrain.
Yup, the Wildcats are only a taste of what's coming. My feeling is that they are now worth their points and provide an actual niche option as opposed to being the slow kids who get chosen last.
