White Banner so far...

Veteran might be helpful for liu xing too.
Aren't they supposed to be tiger alumni?

 

Well, they literally have said we won't have N4 fireteam rules at launch and they'll EVENTUALLY publish them in pdf format. Doesn't really leave much to interpretation.

Edit: I'm also very dissapointed at the almost total lack of real WB characters in WB; where is the Guilang trainer character? where is the monk character (and I mean a WB monk and not the travesty f4all Liang Kai)?

 

Do you have a direct source on that? From what I recall what they said was that it wouldn't be in the physical book, and that's completely different thing.

 

I think IJW or someone else told me when I asked in one of the myriad N4 threads. In the other hand, do you have a direct source saying we'll have N4 fireteam rules at launch? Because I'd love it if it were true

Edit: here, there won't be N4 fireteam rules, just N3 Fireteam rules with minor tweaks

 

I miss having Section9 around to lore dump combat knowledge, he really got this subforum buzzing about Engineer and HFT combo - but alas, we got a standard assault rifle engineer and Krit...

C1 doesn't have Forward Observer and a range of units with Forward Observer has had that skill downgraded to Specialist Operative. In this case it could be just about anything specialist related, though, possibly even Chain of Command or other premium skill as there is no current corresponding load out.

 

It was stated in the Corvus belli YouTube interview in the N4 week that link team rules would not be in the book, but would be released on the internett at the same time as N4 released.

it was pretty crystal clear. They also gave a reason behind that. They wanted to have a possibility for later tweaking without invalidating the published book.

 

Forgive me, but I'm not going to lose time and sleep on validating or invalidating your claim. I will instead assume that they aren't going to release Starmada sectorial and N4 with sectorials functionally broken and mostly pointless.

But I have a feeling you have unrealistic expectations for what would qualify as "N4 fireteam rules" and you might be disappointed if it turns out to be some minor tweak and mostly just some fireteam composition changes every ITS season

 

They expanded that on the stream, basically N4 will come with Fireteam rules that are essentially the same as the current ones tidied up and adjusted for N4 (I reckon changes to things like 6th Sense might have needed some adjustment)

They've changed so much of the core systems they want to let things settle before they finalise the Fireteam rules. All the playtesting in the world can't compare to 6-12 months of actual play and ITS.

Fireteams are such a big part of the game, and affect so many other rules and interactions, that they want to take extra time before making any big changes.

 

Fireteams are such a big part of the game that they decided to release N4 without actual N4 fireteam rules and let their customers playtest for them. This, along with the strange composition of WB, WF and Kosmoflot, feels like they either rushed N4 or didn't have enough manpower to do a proper job (maybe because of Defiance/Aristeia? I don't know) or both.

To clarify: I'm totally ok with the rules being a kind of "living rulebook" that updates as times goes on. What I'm not ok with is releasing a new edition with old edition rules for one of the most important aspects of the game no matter the excuse they want to sell me, especially when linkteam optimization and power creep along with unnecessary complication in the forming of fireteams are a couple of various problematic issues that justified a new edition.


And yes, probably I set the bar of my expectations too high when I thought a new edition would mean a stop to the power creep crazyness and manipulation of their own point formula to release uber profiles with things like NWI + Shock Imm popping up everywhere and that kind of stuff. Alas, it seems it was not to be.

 

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. :P

I am actually happy about CB allowing us to playtest N4 with the current fireteam rules. It shows they are willing to listen to us and our suggestions on what needs to change with fireteams, if anything. Its much better than other gaming companys that release new editions that always have some problems, silence for months before an FAQ comes out that may or may not address the issues with the new edition.

 

Given all the other changes, I think its better they don't touch fireteams too much. Most of us think N3 is a really great game overall and actually the less changes the better.

fucking LOL at uberprofiles. Even the most egregious fireteam combinations aren't breaking the game. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

 

The fact that not only does our Shaolin character go to PanO (with no compensation on our end), but it's pretty clear that he's had to have made some pretty painful concessions in order to do so. The fact that he doesn't get smoke, for example, is pretty pathetic. Especially because Liang Kai would really appreciate access to smoke to do his damn job.

 

We're not going to get BS14 for this weight division, we're not Pan-O. You want that you have to go up a weight class, but that's into our HI that CB either don't want linking or want them to have very limited link options, not being given wildcard.

Increased PH is a bigger deal in N4 with the changes to Dodge, and they have Kinematica as well so it's relevant, and it also works with Paramedic which has been improved. The active turn Dodge means Shang Ji actually move faster if they're willing to take the risk on a 70% roll to go 9" instead of 8". Not something I'd use unless I'm coming up short on an objective or cover, but interesting to know we have the option.

So what are we paying for? 6-2 MOV, which as we've discussed elsewhere, going on the scarcity of 6-2 HI in the other code 1 factions is shaping up to be the "YJ Tech" advantage is YJ HI is swifter. We've stopped paying for the shock CCW, that got removed, and hopefully the cost reduction on defensive stats has been enough to get it to where it should be. As I said, if the Jujak is an indicator it looks pretty hopeful. Supposedly Chain Colts are either free or very close to it, so we've also had a reduction there by swapping the LFT out for Chain Colts while maintaining DTW threat status for the profiles.

We don't know how prevalent TacAw is because it doesn't show up in C1, but I more or less agree most of the profiles will need TacAw or will need to have some other thing (like being a specialist) to be internally competitive. Right now in N3 I can't see anyone picking the cloned Tinbot or SWC options in either Shang Ji or Zuyongs that don't have TacAw, it's kinda just too good in value for the minimal cost to upgrade.

So what's the overarching design? Being well rounded. They're not BS14 but they're infinitely more useful than a BS14 shitkicker ORC who's packing just a combi rifle and his brown trousers. If the point man with the AP HMG eats shit, gets stunned, or finds himself approaching shit range bands, TinBot/Paramedic Shang Ji can step up and say "Don't worry, I got this". If you asked me would I prefer to have +1 BS or AP rounds trying to dig a Gamma unit in SF out, AP rounds every time it's more effective.

If my link team is Gao, TinBot Shang Ji, and 3 Zhanshi and I need them to storm an objective room I am in an infinitely better position to get the job done than a mirror WinterFo link of HMG ORC, TinBot Orc, and 3 Fusiliers. They might have +1 BS but they are at a significant disadvantage. The HMG ORC has shit range bands, the Fusiliers don't want to take point, so they turn to the Combi ORC with the TinBot who has this reaction:



The Shang Ji on the other hand? Perfectly capable of taking over pointman duties for Gao. He has AP/Shock up his sleeve for resilient targets, and he can still threaten to spray the room down with double chain colts. Gao is also capable of doing the same job with his Breaker Pistols and Nanopulser, unlike his ORC HMG counterpart, but setting that aside (and also the fact that this is a great moment to use the Shang Ji's TacAw order assuming the TinBot profile kept it) this allows us to practice some risk mitigation. Gao might be able to do the job, but he's also the link's most valuable member for the long term prospects of the game. I'm going to probably want to pump the majority of my orders through him for the rest of the game. The Shang Ji clears the room just as well but now I have 0% risk on Gao going into the room and eating DTW shit and dieing.

For what their projected costs look like I'm ok with paying for some guys who can bring Plan B to the table.

EDIT: That comparison actually doesn't work, I forgot ORCs use Shotguns on their TinBot guy. Closest replacement would be Brigada/Alguaciles.

This is actually kind of annoying given that Yu Jing actually really want some smoke options in his weight division that bring regular orders to the table with the 15 order change.

 

Now if you're going to ask me are the new Shang Ji good enough to compete with Zuyongs in Invincible Army and do they need BS14 to stand out there? Harder to say because they don't really want to be a pointman in those lists because of the extreme value HMG TacAw Zuyong and Tai Sheng already exists as a very good plan B specialist NCO.

Honestly probably a pretty good chance IA doesn't touch them outside of Zhanshi links, which is stupid given they're Invincibles as well but we've already been over the whole for whatever reason CB has decided White Banner is the primary residence for Shang Ji and we're just going to have to live with that, we all know IA is a half baked mess anyway that needs an overhaul but it'll be a long time before we get it.

Going back to the other topic of making "WB more WB" if I overhauled it to be more traditional lore friendly, Tigers, Shang Ji, and Dao Fei all fuck back off to where they belong in IA. Zhanshi go to AVA Total as they should be and their Doctor/Engineer counterparts get to link with them. Hulang and Hac Tao come across to WB, probably give the Hac Tao some sectorial specific FD profiles to go with the whole ambush theme.

Adil, Lei Gong, and Gao also get told to fuck off unless they can come up with an actual lore friendly reason to be a part of the army.

As for Jujaks turn them into some kind of light infantry version of Haidao wild card Spec Ops with lots of utility buddy profiles like tinbots, engineers, smoke, Albedo, MSV etc, or cheap cost effective SWC weapon spear heads for Zhanshi or even give them Crusher like specific AD profiles.

Probably allow Zuyongs at AVA 3 to give the sectorial a HI Haris if they want it for certain mission parameters.

That would give us space to go back and actually just rework Shang Ji into being that more costly 50-60pt spear head unit for IA.

 

Or maybe Shang-Jis are on WB beacuse CB thought: hey we want to sell Shang-Ji but the selling edge of IA is gone, lets put them on the new sectorial. Better lets make them mandatory to link the native WB heavy infantery.

Look at the jujak porfile options: spitfire, missile launcher. It isn't a cheaper filter option. Where made to work on his own, like Wu Mings on ISS

For me dosen't matter if Shang ji beacome more or less good. The place for a hi wildcard was IA not a light infantery old style sectorial. God, just make jujaks core alone or 2 jujaks and up to 3 Zhansi.

 

That is entirely within the realms of possibility.

 

I don't think that's true. If there's a HRL, HMG, Paramedic, generic Multi Rifle guy for the tinbot profiles that'd sell just fine. Just because you're not gonna build a full link of them doesn't mean you're not gonna use all the profiles. How many people actually run full ORC links instead of 2+Fusiliers? ORCs still justified a box of 3+ tinbot.