You spelt Aleph wrong. Frenzy is necessary to make full HI links viable in N3, hence you only see i.e. the lone Orc or Brigada linked with Linetroopers. Aside from Riot Grrrls and Magister Links (who are Ex Imp, not even Frenzy) I wouldn't play a single full HI core in the game atm, Frenzy or not. The previous best HI Link in the game, Hospitalers + Magisters was made impossible for reasons unknown. Their successor the Teuton Link (with 0 Teutons, 1-2 Santiagos and 3-4 Magisters) is pretty great, but ultimately let down by the need to pay through the nose for Orders, a pretty useless HI Lt for 37+ points that feels out of place in the same list, lack of screening to defend your Order pool and lack of a long range or Smoke Cover for the HI Core. I'd run IA with a 4 Zhanshi + Haidao Core and some sort of Haris/Hac Tao any day over the mess MO is atm. IA ain't great but MO is down there with Druze and Morats. And that's before the other guy could have investet a lot in Hacking, catches your expensive HI link in the same template with a Noctifier ML or some funky Warband with an E/Marat starts making Intuitive Attacks through a Smoke cloud to contest your main defense as HI, your pretty good Dodge. There's a big problem with Links on the offense atm. Teardrop Impact DTWs are part of it but not the whole story, there's just so much stuff that can take out 5 fairly basic HI compared to their cost and defensive options.
The rumored drop in cost of ARM will help with that stuff, I think. Also HI links need to keep up with toolkit mixed links for utility -and- cost. I have faith that this will mostly happen in N4 rebalanced forces. My own favorite HI link is the StarCo Dream Team with Brigadas (HMG, hacker, tinbot), Daktari, and Massacre. For YJ I'm really feeling those unique solo-piece HIs a lot more.
I'm here just to remind you N4 fireteam rules will be just N3 Fireteam rules untill they decide to develop real N4 fireteam rules at some indeterminate point in the future.
That's one interpretation. To me it sounded like they're planning to make sufficient interpolations on the rules and compositions that the rules will be published separately. All we know is that the bonuses will be (roughly) the same at launch - but I wouldn't bet on the free reforms, formation procedure, etc being necessarily the same at launch.
This is a list I did in the WC page. To me, it's more WB than WB. Though not knowing what can and can't be a Lt. I had to go with Hawkwood as the Lt. If I could, i'd make a Fusilier the Lt. and replace him with a Peacemaker and something else. I think the Haris is fantastic compared to a Shang Ji+Ye Mao. It's actually cheaper in pts and SWC. Core FUSILIER (Zhanshi) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Zhanshi) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER (Zhanshi) (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER (Zhanshi) Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37) Haris KAPLAN (Ye Mao) (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) HAWKWOOD Lt. (Sun Tze) K1 Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser / MULTI Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0 | 42) TIGER SOLDIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29) GROUP 2 GŬILÁNG (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) VARANGIAN (Shaolin) Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12) VARANGIAN (Shaolin) Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12) 3.5 SWC | 299 Points
Dude I dunno what fan-canon you've got going on in that head of yours but that is pretty blatantly the least WB thing you could cook up. Like why the fuck is Sun Tze even there? He's got nothing to do with this sectorial, he makes as much sense as Adil and Lei Gong or Gao. I get you have a hard on for Haidao but they thematically don't fit WB either. Remember how we were all confused as fuck when Shang Ji turned up in the army with no justification? Well you're throwing a Yu Jing NavSpec program that was developed to be used with the Invincibles by the navy.
Why not? He's a re-creation that could be anywhere. Why is he not in IA where the best tactical military mind should be and has heavy armor himself? Instead he's regulated to police actions that are sometimes against their own citizens? If that doesn't square then he's Qiang Gao instead. Whatever. My point is, I'm getting better teams in WC than I am in WB with almost the same troops. It's irritating as hell! I get better Zuyong in Dahshat, I get Hars Wu Ming in Ikari, Now I can have a fairly better Jujak team in WC too. Why the hell can i do this in WC and better KAPLAN Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Blitzen / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) JUJAK Missile Launcher, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) JUJAK Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 33) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) 2 SWC | 161Points Than this? Which is more expensive. SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) JUJAK Missile Launcher, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 37) JUJAK Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 33) YĚ MĀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) 2.5 SWC | 179 Points Open in Infinity Army
I think you are using confirmation bias to see WC as “better” than WB. I personally do not like either of those links as neither have any “teeth” offensively. If you are spending most of your points on one link, I feel like you have to have a B5 gunner.
Each to their own I guess. The Jujak can have a Spitfire instead. I'm more showing this as an example. It can also be a ORC HMG instead of Kaplan. Jujak can join an ORC team. The reason I like the Kaplan is because he's cheaper, with vis mod and a doctor that can heal the guys in the link as needed. I also now have points I can spend elsewhere in the army. Here's another that can't be done in WB for some reason. Liang Kai can be in a full man link team and if he gets some friends into CC he can kill just about anything. KAPLAN Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Blitzen / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 22) 0 SWC | 152 Points
No. The Party doesn't trust Sun Tze at all, he's kept on a tight leash and under watch, see Human Sphere in N3. Hence being married to ISS where they can keep an eye on him. As far as they know he's an Aleph mole reporting on their naughty black ops shit they're up to. Qiang is a blank slate at this point because we basically don't know shit about him, but realistically he's probably got nothing to do with the faction he's just being jammed in with it because Defiance cross sales, same as Lei Gong. See here we go. You're not building a White Banner list you're just fan-canoning what is in your mind more OP/Streamlined/more effective. This has nothing to do with being "more WB than WB." as you put it, it's just a list of what you'd rather play with than what's being offered. Winter Force and White Banner are asymmetrical. Pointing at superior BS and link teams in Winter Force is fucking stupid and pointless, the Pan-O player will point back at the fact you get an abundance of Camo states and Smoke while he gets none. Don't like that? Well welcome to Infinity, the factions aren't the same (for the moment). If you want Winter Force options go play Winter Force. If you want to complain about something not making sense for White Banner complain about AVA4 Zhanshi, because that makes no sense thematically.
When has story ever stopped them? It doesn't really matter does it? Even you have said WB might as well be Vanilla. So think of it as Vanilla Plus. That's true. I'm disappointed and jealous. I admit it. I'm disappointed WB feels handcuffed and unfinished and WC I can do things I actually like.
Winning prizes for missing the point and having double standards right there. Please point to where I said that, I think you are incorrect.
I think a lot of problems could have been solved by never having the Jujak exist... But for real, cross faction comparisons between a N3 and a N4 army seems pointless. There is so much uncertainty in the air, I would just wait until N4 arrives.
The more I have reflected on the Jujak the more I think I understand why they came about. For whatever reason the Shang Ji resculpt+rework was heavily delayed, why they weren't properly updated with IA begs questions but that sectorial does that alot. Maybe it's partially due to SKU issues and they need to share the Shang Ji around a bit, maybe it's motivated to try and get new Kaldstrom YJ players to cross pollinate into Invicible Army. Who knows, it's not really important. Either way CB made a decision that Shang Ji were going to be designed as a wild card spearhead unit and they were going in WB. You slot them into a link as the point man. That lets them be a bit more costly and have a few more rules. However as we all know building a full link out of these guys is very difficult to make a viable thing in Infinity without doing shit like cheating the points system as MO does, so they need a link of budget HI to link into. Now if we bring Zuyongs over to WB, not only does that make things even shittier fluff wise, but we also run into Dahshat all over again of "Hey that's MY link but better" and it treads on IA's toes even more. So instead we have Jujaks with their own fluff justification of being a new post Uprising distinct ethnic but fully integrated Korean unit. If their costs play out as expected going off C1 points, <25pts for a combi Jujak is actually within the realms of viability of being useful but better than average link fodder, especially for Haris and Duos.
If they want Shangers to be the spearheads of WB they need to be better than budget HI fodder they lead. And they are not better in places that matter: 13 BS, B4 guns, heavy ARO guns and 2W. Shangers just pay more for some "useful" things like PH, Arm and Bts. They pay even some more for useless stuff like CC and better CCW. And all we want for them is 14BS. So either make Jujak only core or make Shanger elite enough to be the pointman of Jujak link. I wouldn't mind paying 60+ points for Shang ji with currents stats but 14BS, NWI and new Regeneration on all profiles. Oh and also getting rid of non SWC profiles and giving them all TacAware. Now they look like real veterans of many battles that got extra training and state of the art armor that is supposed to keep them alive at all costs, as true veteran with so much experience is worth more than armor.
It could also be "Shang-Ji are going to lose their flamers; create new bigger Naffatunier HI"! But if the C1 points translates over, I think Jujak will become very spicy considering a Jujak Combi+HFT will be cheaper than Zuyong Combi (depending on rounding, either 22 and 23 points or 24 and 25 points). Just low relative cost alone is a very strong quality. I'd like to remain positive if possible; there's a very good chance that Shang-Ji has a hidden skill or two that's not part of C1; their points are a bit off compared to Jujak/Zuyong and when it came to the comparison Tiger vs Crusher I get the impression profile costs aren't necessarily fully baked for C1 but converted down from N4. Don't know about you, but for me Regeneration on all Shangers (compared to their C1 kit) would be enough and anything more than that would just be icing.
Probably. And sorry, it may not have been you if you don't remember. Someone else other than me has said it.
That's sort of the point with shang ji/jujak comparison. If Jujaks become so cheap and Shangers don't get anything new then you are forced to take 5 Jujaks but one of them is for some reason like 1,5 times more expensive while not getting better at killing at all. I do hope they have some juicy new rule to come in pair with marvelous new sculpt, but I'm afraid it's not gonna happen. I'm dreading that giving base shang ji multi rifle instead of combi is about as elite as shang ji are becoming. And losing flamers in favor of chain colts just to be a little more distinctive from Jujaks doesn't look good either.
I thought I'd add this for reference because it seems like they will be very close to this. I was the one that wanted Shang Ji to get HFT. Not a whole new profile! So they get an upgrade of combi to multi but down great of LFT to Chain Colt. Seems like a sideways move. The medic is actually not bad if it's the same as C1 rules. There's not longer a negative to it. It's just a PH roll and since they are PH14 it's not that bad. That's better some doctors. Not sure what the points will be in N4 but why would you take anything other than AP HMG+Regen? Speaking of "why would you", why take a Specialist Operative, when a paramedic does the same thing, with the same weapons and can heal guys?
Why not give Shang ji veteran l1, that would be great too and work wonders against some hacking threats. Fatality would be another thing that comes to my mind and of course bs14. An elite HI that's able to manouvre through enemy repeaters and kick some serious ass. One can dream right?
