Nah, none of that, as I said, I don't play Ariadna in any fashion, so no real first hand experience. The only reason I bothered posting this was because that was the first (and so far only) real argument I had heard against the 15 order limit, that the identity of some sectorials lies in superior numbers of inferior troops. Very glad to know there are USARF players excited about the change!
ridiculous is that you think that Ariadna works only with 16+ and the comparison with 40k. Infinity is a skirmisher; 40k is Massplay. But ok; for you it isn't playstil. Over 80% have voted yes vor 15 unit limited, so it is what it is. I can live with it; and you?
Hehe, you now angry birds? Pigs with Armyuniform; looks like something for Ariadna and its a little my old playstil. "with lowtech in a hightechworld, you must be a pig in Armor. ...I love it to hunt Tag's. ;)
Did you actually read what I wrote or just see 40k and call it there? Whether or not something "works only with 16+" is not relevant. It's an arbitrary restriction that impacts only a few factions and even then, only certain Sectorials within those factions. We're not getting "Only one Skirmisher" lists. We're not getting "Only one Heavy Infantry" lists. We're not getting "No Chain of Command" lists. We're literally just getting something that should be addressed in a better manner. That's why the comparison to 40k. Which did the same stupid thing in response not to the actual problem of certain playstyles or units being trash but rather the fact that certain things get taken a lot. You don't want Ariadna spam lists? Then make the elite units more meaningful. And while we're at it, Enomotarchos and Triads just need to become core rules at this point. Not like those Sectorials really have anything going for them beyond that gimmick.
I think this is a really good point against the limit: "Not all the factions are "affected" equally". And I think all we us could agree in this particular point, right? But please, don't forget anyone that this is a discussion about why is good or why not. Nothing more. The decission is already taken and it isn't unavoidable, because we will have the "mods", same as now. Sometimes it looks like some of us forget about all of it :) Spoiler: Offotopic @Panzerschwein "ja, ich kenne Angry Birds, aber ich habe nie es gespielt. (Es tut mir leid. Villeicht habe ich viele Fehler gemacht). Sorry, guys, but I should try a little German (or a kind of). I like it the simil. You just have changed my mental image of tankhunters... :P
@kanluwen hehe, you said playstyles. nuff said. really, this will not going on and on. ...sorry @Urobros Taghunter. *laugh*
I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you're going to post on the English forums for the game? Try to explain your points better if you feel someone "isn't getting it". Yes. I said playstyles. Because a key part of what each faction and Sectorial bring to the game is their playstyles. This is not a new or exciting development. Haqqislam and Ariadna have, since day one, been billed as the 'spammy' faction, thanks to their lower tech-base for units and generally cheap units. Once again, the problem with rules like this is that it affects certain factions and not others.
At the beginning I said: 16+ is a playstil. you answer: No it is not. Now it is one of playstyles... I'm confused. This is what I mean; you can play without 16+ Lists. Thats all.
And you can play Ariadna and Haqq without 16+ lists... additionally, the ironclad certainty that both factions and all of their sectorials will remain exactly as they currently are is kind of... "misplaced".
Cool, so your problem is that I used the same word in two different contexts? You argued that 16+ is a playstyle(this is the correct spelling of the word, for the record), implying that it is something that the players choose to do. That is not necessarily the case. Hence the air quotes around "playstyle" in my initial reply to you and the follow on statement(which you still have not actually ever addressed) of it being a result of being a cheaply pointed army. If, say, you're playing whatever the points value is these days for ITS and you have dirt cheap units...you will end up having a lot of models. That is how math and numbers work. By comparison, a faction with high points costs will not have as many models. Again, this is how math and numbers work. This is a USARF list I like and can field using the models I own: Spoiler USAriadna Ranger Force ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22) MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28) MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29) MARAUDER (Multispectral Visor L1) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 26) MINUTEMAN Lieutenant AP HMG / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 34) MINUTEMAN (Fireteam: Duo) Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23) MINUTEMAN Missile Launcher, Light Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 29) GROUP 2 2 UNKNOWN RANGER (Chain of Command) Rifle / Heavy Pistol, T2 CCW, Knife. (0 | 41) FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) 6 SWC | 280 Points Open in Infinity Army This is 12 models. And that's not even trying to get a spam list going and doesn't actually finish the list out. Part of Ariadna's (to avoid the term playstyle since apparently it's a trigger word for you) theme is 'cheaper than average infantry, because they don't have all the techy bits'. This is, additionally, a cost saving list. It doesn't go crazy with boxes required to buy or needing to do too many split boxes. It's a USARF starter set(Foxtrot, Marauder w/ Rifle+HFT, Minuteman w/ 2x LFTs, 3x Grunt Rifles), a Minuteman box(Lt with AP HMG+ML), a Marauder box(Molotok, Sniper, HRL), and the Unknown Ranger convention exclusive from a few years back(which is the only one I own). I'm sure the list will get ripped to shreds and people will bitch about how it "shows how little you know about the game!", but I do not really care about that. The point should be fairly self-evident that arbitrary caps affect specific factions, which is what I've tried to hammer home. Sorry I reused your trigger word and confused you with air quotes I guess? The problem is that just because a sectorial can do a thing, doesn't mean that every player is interested in doing such a thing nor do they necessarily possess the models to do so.
What about the people who has purchased, ensembled and painted those armies specifically because they like how they are right now? Are those purchases less valuable than any other? USARF is specifically designed to be played with more than 15 orders, it doesn't have many irregular heavy lists and those are not prominent to begin with. All the profiles except 2 (UKR and partially minutemen) fit like a glove. All their profiles have a role and all of them have to work together to make possible what other armies achieve with one single elite troop. They don't have spear heads but support units (blackjack, devildog) Yes you can make some lists with less orders and more of those expensive support units, but those lists go against the intended design of the army and are not particularly powerful because you end up placing troops because of their price not because of their role on the table. Additionally even with all those orders it seems quite obvious that overall USARF does not come on top of tournaments often, instead we see aleph shasvastii and tohaa those armies are barely affected by the 15 cap and without some nerfs are going to steamroll already weak armies like USARF. What's going to happen? Well at some point USARF is going to be reworked to work like the rest of armies and two scenarios can happen: Best case scenario the changes work and the army looses his current theme and charm but stays relevant and competitive, obviously this is already bad for those who purchased the army specifically for their current flavour. Worst case scenario the band aid does not work in tournament, the army looses the charm and many profiles became useless for the new style. Then the army will suffer the MRRF treatment for years to come because all the models are already sold and there is no point on fixing them until much much later when USARF is relaunched or repacked with a kosmoflot or NA2 style product. Whatever happens, the game will loose the diversity that USARF brings to the table in a time where the game has more armies than ever and all of them have to be able to work with the 15 cap. Be honest this is not about balance, this is about what people thinks is annoying for them on the table, specially if they don't play one of the affected armies.
What I'm worried with armies like Haqq or Ariadna (and their sectorials) is that during this current Tactical Window thing (which is in the rulebook, so it's an edition change, not single ITS season), those armies will be "adjusted" to "better fit TW". Once N5 comes and TW is likely gone, changed to something else, these armies will again be "out of sync".
Thought experiment - what if instead of having a flexibly defined 15 order limit, N4 said that you could have up to 2 full combat groups, but then reduced the size of a combat group to 7 or 8 models? I think it would probably be the end of single combat group army lists, and would probably break more things for more armies than tactical window does.
For this game, my hope is that 15 orders would be spam. That's a lot of bodies on the table for covert ops. I'd love for costing / unit effectiveness / mission design to push list viability down in terms of troop number where a hyper elite force can cut it with 8-9 dudes and the spammers run 14-15. If you want to talk about playstyles, that's still almost a 50% variation in list size, which feels pretty significant as a source of variety across factions.
This game is as much covert ops as a Call of Duty game is. It's a game that started life as a RPG and it shows clearly. Every faction has their 'goons', 'elites', 'monsters', and 'bosses'. Call it what it is: Skirmish game.
Skirmish with giant robots... yeah. Sure. And other thing. They want us to play with less figures, but they said that the general way will be reduce the cost of almost everything in N4... A buff for factions with real useful +50 points elites, but no for, again, Ariadna or Haqqislam
15 models at 300 points is an average of 20 points per model. This means that models that cost less than 20 points need to be balanced out by the inclusion of other models that cost more than 20 points. So I just took a quick scan through vanilla Ariadna, and they look like they have a ton of models that cost around 20, including a bunch of the regular camo skirmishers they are famous for. They also have a decent number of fairly scary models in the 30-40 range. I’m not going to pretend I’m an overnight Ariadna expert, but it looks to me like this is pretty viable.
yeah, but now you will fit more easiy that Visor HI to counter that. Or add more visors to a fireteam. Or taht TO/ODD HI will have more fuel to do things because everything go cheaper
But does playing that way require a re-tooling of your approach, or is it merely plug and play? After all, we can't be changing our approach in any way. It has to play exactly the same way we already do, with no appreciable difference. Otherwise, it's the end of Haqq, of Ariadna, indeed, of Infinity itself!
