That is a good point but I think the hidden deployment they are getting in N4 will help remove that issue.
The current N3 Hundun kinda is the support though, he's slower MI without full infiltration. He basically exists as an ARO option.
Main thing with White Banner is that before anything else, for a faction that is built on half of vanilla's foundation, you're losing Kuang Shi and the Daoying Lt. That's huge, and what WB brings to the table has to be a worthy competitor to the trade off of those tools to even be worth contemplating. And that's well before every other piece that WB loses access to.
But right now in WB when you see s2 camo token in your 16in it has to be either hundun, guilang that wasted most of his infiltration or a mine which has to be within 8in from s3 camo. Opponent knows exactly when you have HRL aro and where it is . In vanilla this camo token could be liberto, his mine, daoying or hundun. That is the support it gets in vanilla.
It's unlikely to be a Daoying in Vanilla. The Hundun will stand as an ARO piece, Daoying isn't going to stand up to be seen. I feel like if you're trying to fake out with a Liberto minelayer that's kind of a huge waste of the Liberto, but that's kind of immaterial because you're using the Hundun wrong right now anyway. What you should be doing is setting up the Hundun as a reserve piece, assuming you're taking second turn here, is to overlap an ARO. You want to deploy this like a hyper lethal helot, or if you're the odd connoisseur, the Guilang MSR. You want to pair this with some other kind of ARO piece while it doesn't have HD, say a TR bot or a core linked SWC weapon. The idea is you place the TR bot to intercept a primary attack piece then you place the Hundun so if they try to slice on the TR bot they have to see the Hundun's camo marker first. The situation you've set up here is that even a model benefiting from core link bonuses is going to Discover the Hundun on average, on 10s (or 7s if you can put the Hundun outside of 32", or if this is a Haris or solo attack piece). You're throwing your opponent an uncomfortable 50/50 or worse odds. Worst case scenario they pass the discover check and they spend an extra order fighting your ARO piece, that's fine, mission accomplished. Best case scenario they fail and now their gunfighter can't try to discover again. Now your opponent is really placed in an awkward spot, if they want to fight the TR bot they have to set themselves up to engage the Hundun at the same time.
We know that the Hidden Deployment will only come in some profiles. I have hopes for WB exclusive features.
Going back to the Hundun in general though, can anyone tell me why the Shock Marksman rifle profile costs 0.5 SWC? That seems very odd to cost SWC.
MSV1 on a Hidden Deployed unit is still a first, and one hell of a surprise for the usual Mimetism gunners people use or even Warbands given the N4 change to the MSV/Smoke interaction.
It's a LOT less huge because it's on a Marksmanship Rifle and a regular Camouflage unit, so the usual stuff that you associate Hidden Deployment troopers is simply not going to be there. There's no multi-damage potential, there's a lot higher risk of not being able to outrange your opponent and you won't have very good MODs. This is better against dogged warbands than anything else, which could be decent tech to have if it weren't for the fact that standard play will see reduced numbers of those types of units.
More concerned about the gun/toolkit versus the cost. It seems to be a relatively pricey unit yet one dimensional. Doesn't have any deployment abilities and we're in Tiger Soldier price range here for something that's going to start in your DZ assuming Bravery fucks off (which it should IMO). Do I really want to commit 30+ points and some SWC to this guy who starts in my DZ and only has a marksman rifle? I'm not really sure. Like @Mahtamori says his job seems to have been designed around countering warbands which is kinda not that useful in the N4 environment, a tool for us which is a day late and a dollar short as they say. If it could infiltrate and maybe had some extra tools like some sort of deployable, even something like a sniffer I'd be alot more interested.
That's kinda why I've been disappointed in WB so far. The core fireteams are not good enough to make it worth giving up vanilla. Even the higher ava on guilang and tiger soldiers are not Something I'd take advantage of because that leaves less for the rest of the force. If they had more variety of good teams it would be worth it.
Tbh Hidden Deployment with just a Marksman Rifle and no infiltration skills is a waste but well, Yu Jing can't have nice things
In before Noctifers not getting Hidden Deployment in N4... (Which tbh wouldn't be a bad thing. Shas and combine is full of extremely high quality units and Q-drones are far better than human equivalents so it's not like this decidedly difficult units to deal with necessarily needs hidden deployment anymore as there is nothing left to compensate for) Now, the Hundun doesn't require Hidden Deployment to function as you can use mines and other camo to saturate the zones and make it hard to guess what is what, but a HD Hundun would be one of those really good units with increased AVA that I wrote about earlier. I'll also say this much that I think with the changes to Multi Snipers and the standard game format in general, it seems N4 is further cementing tge HRL Hundun as the only GOOD load out, the other two being very situational
Under the assumption that the Shang Ji tinbot TacAw profile comes to 35ish and the Blue Wolf comes to 70ish in N4 that's not a terrible Duo for cost, they'll be something like 100-110 points for 4 orders between them. Rough points but I think I could build something that looks like this and it'd work. GROUP 1 10 TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) BLUE WOLF AP Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower, Akrylat-Kanone / DA CC Weapon. (2 | 70) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) QIANG GĀO (Lieutenant L2) HMG, Nanopulser / 2 x Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1 | 43) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) LÓNG YÁ 2 Panzerfaust, Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) GROUP 2 4 4 SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 14 models, including 3 HI and 1 TAG packing 15 orders to spend on Combat Group 1. In contrast to what does it offer over Vanilla, your KHD and TAG get tinbot coverage, and Gao gets a pseudo Haris to be used as a safe long range attack piece to punch through soft ARO coverage like Flash pulses, and he's probably durable enough to at least try once or twice at things like TR bots. Probably wouldn't make him fight snipers though. If desired the Tian Gou/Shang Ji duo can get folded into a core with Gao and the Zhanshi depending on what the game looks like. Or you could turn the Gou/Shang Ji into the psuedo haris and send one out with them when they leave your lines. You've got options provided you don't box yourself into the "MUST. HAVE. CORE. LINK." mentality. The Duos also give you better order efficiency dragging more models upfield to cover each other. List might get utterly fucked by Oblivion being used to target Gao though, but need to see what supposed new anti hacking defense tech there is, @ijw insinuated it's changing. At a bare minimum he does have a KHD/Tinbot that can be stuffed into a link with him. Unrelated: Why the fuck is Mehmut in this army? I figured betrayal was going to give some fluff justification but it did nothing of the sort being set on Paradiso inbetween 3rd Offensive and N4.
Eh, as someone who has used a bunch of Hidden Deployment in NCA I think you are really missing the potential of that Marksman Rifle. 24 inches out from your DZ of good range still covers most of the midfield if you want it, including any objectives, and you don't usually want to set up Hidden Deployment ARO traps against the enemy DZ without an amazingly good reason because of how quickly they can reposition something else and kill your expensive investment. Hidden Deployment also allows a disproportionate number of opportunities to catch an opponent out of cover, and Mimetism/Camo is so overwhelmingly common on things people actually use that the MSV is almost as good as 3 more BS, key for getting results out of ARO. Shock ammo counters the increasingly common Dogged+ units as effectively as the HRL's Fire, at only one less damage. Lastly, the Marksman Rifle can pull a lot of weight after the initial reveal, advancing into the midfield to easily stack modifiers against the usual targets there either actively through range or defensively through Suppressive Fire. It's easily as generally applicable as the HRL's template and ranges. Most of that goes out the window if the profile doesn't get Hidden Deployment, though, and the HRL option is still good, especially against links on the move. I can agree that the MULTI Sniper will be almost dead without Hidden Deployment though, it's weird that CB somehow decided that the overpriced gun that's almost never used instead of Launchers where available needed a nerfing. Probably the idiotic Fireteam bonuses threw off the numbers in their data and CB completely missed the actual problem.
NCA is working with that extra -3 MOD for TO though, kinda a big difference. I'm not disagreeing there, my main issue is the job the profile is competing with for raw surprise attack value is a Tiger Soldier, and he's smack bang in the cost range for a Spitfire Tiger who packs better burst and can appear much more suddenly upfield. If he had a little more utility equipment like an actual skirmisher I'd be alot happier as he'd fill more roles than just attempting to compete as a raw beatstick. Charge him a point extra and throw sniffers on it and I'd go to town with it.
Where is this idea that the Noctifers are losing HD in N4? Mere Rumor? Also, what nerf has been given to Multi Snipers that make them worse in N4?
