They've already done that and to the extreme, at least capping ava will allow for larger lists while while keeping some of the more abusive spam pieces in line. In this game, especially with its hyper lethality, bodies counter bodies. so regardless of if you implement some janky rule along the lines of, anything over 15 is irregular or doesn't generate an order, it wont solve the issue. Those additional models generates AROs, provides redundancy, the super cheap stuff often have the ability to punch way out of their weight class and pose existential threats whilst ignoring core mechanics of the game, and the worst part is it will be at no risk of losing a valuable resource. Not only is that elite model that costs 4 time as much no where near 4 times as survivable or effective it also needs to expend at a minimum 4 times the resources (which by the nature of elite lists means that is a far more expensive proposition) to come to parity and that's if it doesn't get dropped like a sack of shit order 1, also providing that model doesn't need to be discovered, and that's before you take into account the orders needed to be taken to get into a position to engage them. What needed to happen was a substantial price hike on anything below a certain points threshold, reduction in access to skills like mine layer, deployable weapons and perimeter weapons to spam factions (they have bodies for this, these are more beneficial for the elites and would help counter the spam), beat DTWs with the nerf bat until the bat breaks (use BS, but ignore mods, and remove the large teardrop from the game, cut down on the amount in the game) but instead they added more as well as ditching one of the few ways to effectively take down multiple enemies at once with the removal of impact templates (shotgun change is probably the worst change in the entire edition so far), and probably make camo cost as much as MSV1.
Well imagine the reactions if they said "Okay, Mutts are ava 2 now and all those cheapo LI and warbands down to 4. " You'd have the same peoples howling about it probably even worse than this. Not that i'd be the one crying mind you, i only play OSS and MAF, and even then as OSS i prefer playing Asura and Marut rather than one of those big lists that all look exactly the same, even if that usually amount to putting a bullet in my leg, figuratively speaking. Maybe the solution would be to revise the point value of certain pieces of gear and skills like camo, chain rifles, mines, smoke grenades, G: Sync peripherals and so on, considering their impact on the game and how reliable they generally are as game mechanics to tank the other player's order economy, while i'm paying through the nose for a MSV3 that do nothing that much better than a MSV2 when my troops already have 14/15 WIP on average. But then maybe it does change too in N4.
Wouldn't bet on the points cost changing for the cheap abusive gear. For whatever reason SMGs, which were basically universally agreed on upon as having a fucking retarded price point for the value they provide, appear unchanged in N4.
this is where vanilla vs sectorial ava comes into to play, 2 mutts in vanilla but 4 in the sectorial. Warbands at 4 are fine (see monks, jags, v. guard, etc.) and anything more is excessive, as for the LI you shouldnt need more than 5, that either a full core or a mixed core with some refills.
From the Data thread, let's see which factions are forced to change playstyle because they average over 15 Orders or borderline affected (playstyle at average 15 Orders or close): - Dahshat forced - Aleph borderline - Varuna borderline - OSS borderline - Ikari forced - Caledonia forced - USARF forced - Haqq borderline - Ariadna borderline - MRRF borderline - ISS forced - Haqq borderline - QK forced least affected (12-13 Orders average) - Shasvaasti - Foreign - Combined Army - O-12 - JSA - PanO - Druze Do you see a pattern here? Core Ariadna borderline with two fucked sectorials and one borderline (and one almost in the least affected, TAK). Haqq core borderline with two sectorials fucked. Least affected? All the N3 powerhouses. Shas & CA. Foreign Co. O-12 (lower than others in ranks because it's a new faction). Aside from Dashat being the outlier (and dropped, irrc?), TacWindow won't affect the powerhouses. It will affect the already weaker factions and force them to use less optimal combinations, go through a period of weakness due to innovation and adaptation, while the powerhouses remain as they were. Spoiler
Well, if your average list is 17 orders and the new limit is 15, it's not like you've got an option, do you? In the meantime Shas, CA, O-12 and such do not have to do squat all. Factions where you have to actively try and sabotage yourself to be the underdog of most any pairing.
Considering that mechanics and points costs are being heavily revised, all army lists were going to have to be rebuilt anyway.
My point is that even a single unit’s cost changing by a single point could throw a list off. I’m expecting a lot of units to change costs by at least a few points, whether up or down, and it’ll make 300 point armies not be 300 points anymore. Any changes to rules or weapons also changes the player’s personal valuation, and I expect a shift of which exact loadouts are desirable for toolbox purposes.
If camo was changed, the factions that lean on it more would be changed to reflect that. Though honestly man, was a post even needed for saying this? I feel like you might not be thinking on this issue with a calm head at the moment.
Tbh it's not helping anything at all with CB dropping the bombshell which raises tonnes of questions, then clamming up and refusing to drop anymore info.
@colbrook it’s possible, but very difficult. The expendable models in the multi-model troop can usually be deployed in a way that they must be taken out before the controller. And don’t get me wrong, I love tactical window. Multi-model troops just standing in the open are preferable to order spam and rambos killing your packfield on top of turn one. Games are also be way faster and more tactical with less orders. You can no longer brute force everything with pile of orders. @Nuada Airgetlam Antipode assault pack, Strelok with Antipode, Team Polaris (probably). In TAC it’s pretty easy get 20+ models with 15 orders (not counting mines or decoys). During the transition period, where we don’t have fireteams, I’m going to run double antipode packs, Voronin (for that 16th order) and triple dog warriors. Lot of camos and wounds for the enemy to chew through without the help of fireteam AROs.
I sure hope there is no "transition period where we don't have fireteams" because that would be a really awful edition change and another clue about N4 being rushed. And about those supposed point changes, I'll believe them when I see them because in that O12 VS YJ battle report the Yu Jing list was almost the same cost than in N3 and that was running 3 HI. So they either used N3 costs for a N4 battle report or the supposed HI price drop does not in fact exist.
I think you may have misheard something. The ‘transition period’ will be from N3 Fireteam rules with minor updates to work with bits of N4 that have changed, to actual N4 Fireteam rules.
You need to manually detract 2 troopers from Aleph and OSS as basically all lists have Proxies that are inflating the numbers Also remember that those are averages and that we don't know the shape of the distribution curve, so any faction with an average close to 15 is most likely going to have a majority of their tournament lists affected and be forced to adapt. (I'm also not sure if the numbers have had TW and LI tournaments sanitised) In addition to this, we also can't tell from pure numbers how much this actually affects the numbers. Would anyone care if they need to remove a Warcor from their list? Probably not.
