It also doesn't help that the rest of the fireteam also costs less than the cost of another model of that type. Whats the point in paying for an ORC team to get the powerful bonuses associated when you can tget the same on one ORC for less than the cost of a second. From what I saw all tohaa lists were pretty much the exact same with maybe 30 points of variance, and if it didn't go in a triad it seldom saw the table if at all. Its hard to argue against the efficiency of 4+ 3 man units running around the table with utility specialist+eclipse warband+strong gunfighter that can just shrug damage, compared to pretty much anything else in the roster.
You mean how the Draal invalidated Sukeuls and how Tagmaa completely replaced Makauls? Erm wait a second... Spiral has it's duds (Long Arms... the heck?) and the usual problem that there isn't much of a point in HI in N3 next to non HI symbionts with Mate. As far as I remember I've seen all the Tohaa troops available to Vanilla in lists organically though. Each of them manage to do something or have at least one Profile that Vanilla wants. That's on par or better than the usual Sectorial, where troops don't make sense without their Links or Vanilla has a competitor that eclipses another choice (Nisse vs Bagh Mari, Chasseur vs Foxtrott, etc). You still run them for higher AVA or to scrape off a point to put elsewhere. For Spiral troops however, you actually want the new kits they offer.
The usual Tohaa list is 2+ out of Draal/Sukeul/Gao Rael/Rasail. A bunch of Makauls, Kaeltar and Chaksa are usually the fillers and Orders. Flex picks depending on mission and filling up points/Triads are usually Gao Tarso, Greif, Clipsos, Sakiel, Kaauri, Kamael, Kerail, Kiiutan, Kosuil, Kriigel, Kumotail, Delegate, Aelis, Jaan Staar, Kiel-Saan, Neema, Gorgos. Seldom seen are Nikoul, Ectros, Taqeul (some people really like Bugs+Advanced Command), Igao. Pretty much no shows are Long Arms and Reex. The core of 75% of all Tohaa lists is Sukeul, 2x Kaeltar and 2+ Makauls. Everything else is pretty damn flexible. About >200 points of any given list are going to be variable and last time I checked people aren't married to Sukeuls anymore ever since Draals started existing.
This has been my experience playing the faction. Barely anything I didn't try at least once aside from obvious overpriced crap like Longarms Chaksa.
Good Morning!! I have played some games with winterforce (TTS) and I have to say, maybe it isn't so bad... Even the "boyg" isn't so bad, the low SWC cost for the mk12 is a great option when you want to play some big weapons and yet having some heavy guy. Yes, it is not the "natural killer" we want, but it is usefull. I think maybe winterforce go for lists with duo options which can do things and later remade a full fire team members to finish the game... Spoiler: List Fuerza Invernal De Svalarheima ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 MAQUINISTA Fusil Combi, Cargas-D / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 15) PALBOT Pulso Eléctrico. (0 | 3) CABALLERO HOSPITALARIO Médico (MediKit) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC DA. (0 | 35) CABALLERO DE JUSTICIA Spitfire / Pistola Pesada, Arma CC DA. (1.5 | 51) BØYG Mk12 / Pistola Pesada, Arma CC Shock. (0 | 55) FUSILERO Sanitario (MediKit) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 12) ORCO Feuerbach / Pistola, Cuchillo. (2 | 42) ORCO Feuerbach / Pistola, Cuchillo. (2 | 42) QUINN Fusil de Precisión Shock / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 23) FUSILERO Teniente Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 10) FUSILERO Sanitario (MediKit) Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo. (0 | 12) 5.5 CAP | 300 Puntos Abrir en Infinity Army
Sorry if this has been discussed before (I don't remember seeing it come up in this thread but it's been a while since I read it) but is there a consensus on whether the Kunai Ninja has a place in SWF? I've generally been very uninterested in expensive, ranged focussed ninjas, and always ran one of the cheaper profiles in ISS, but I was wondering whether the lack of any other TO options in SWF makes the Kunai a more appealing choice? Have people been able to give either of the profiles a go?
Depends entirely on the actual kit and pricetag in N4. Doesn't look too bad in C1, but with points being rounded to the closet multiple of 5 it can swing 0-2 points in either way and might be missing Skills or a piece of equipment on top.
There's possibly a place for the Marksman Rifle option as a cheap backup offensive piece. It is pretty strong as a hunter-killer against most mid-to-low cost options.
Even standard Ninjas are annoying to remove when in Suppressive Fire, especially turn 3 (or even 2). If you play the long game, ninjas are awesome.
I mean its basically a slightly better locust shock mmr. God it's sad how niche the locust is. Playing in Vaul's league I've got to say I was hardly ever disappointed by the Nokken. Fo and minelayer performed well consistently. The KHD was so so as you would expect of a naked hacker. The nokken plus fusilier core was pretty much the best link of my lists and it always did well enough. People were not super happy to look at all the ODD running around. I haven't really been wowed by a whole lot of the sectorial. Vargar remain neat, but I dont think they're a good core. Karhu are excellent but really want to duo with a knight making them very expensive. Even with all my shooting I still felt very pinned in my DZ until I could bash through several models and break out. For all the mobility, the overall design of the sectorial made it feel slow. Expensive troops and very narrow design really slows down lists and Sval is no different.
After some games (most of them in TTS, but some in "table") I'am pretty sure the problems with the Nokkens or the "forward deployment" in Winterforce are the "enemy" you face. If he have some cheap, speed units plus template direct weapons, them you will hate this troups, but if not, probably they manage to resit the enemy attack and do some damage in the active turn, DDO+cover it isn't something to ignore. Still, we will see whats come in N4. It will be there when we can say if Winterforce is or isn't cool :)
I mean, it's a Winter force so it'll be cool whatever the rules turn out to be, kind of like a Tropical force will always be hot :P
If we put jokes apart, in N3 rules winterforce it isn't so bad. The big problem Winterforce has is Varuna (and a little too his box companion). If Varuna didn't be first, nobodys were complain about it. Yes, Winterforce is not what we wait, but, what was what we expeted? I truly have a hard time triying to answer thast question. Only one answer come to my mind: "not this". So, maybe we were a little to rush complaning about Winterforce. After a few games I have to say I really enjoy play with Winterforce. I found the same problems as I found when playing other factions: achilles + posthuman are a hard combination to fight against. No matter what you are playing if you don't put exactly the right tools to stop "achilles". But playing against, for example, Spiral, I found my self making mistakes, but not a lack of options to play against spiral. Indeed you have the tools, even if you play IL and the others not. Of course, if you play against order spam maybe you experience some issues if dices don't smile you, but this isn't a truly "winterforce problems". Right know I think, against the more commun thinking, boyg (at least mk12) is useful. Yes, if we compare points against others latest S5, the comparaison is terrible, but still, the humble boyg do the work. Armour 5+ cover + B4 in active aren`t something you can ignore and allow you to put SWC in other places like a couple of Feuerbach Orc fire member link... Knight Justice can be part of the "core" or be in a duo with some specialist like the Medic Hospitaller. Sometimes I had the sensation to play MO instead winterforce, but with no kind of "surpresives" options (no TO order seargents) but I think Winterforce is meant to be the "FIST" of Pano, the truly one. No finesse but brute force- When I realiced the flexibility in order to mantain a 5 fireteam members during the whole game I found the "Winterforce" way. Isn't hard to have core+haris+duo or core + duo + duo where at least you have 2 replacements for the "core". So, maybe this will the path. A hard core capable of put down the "ARO pieces" from the enemy making space for the duos in order to push buttons, or a CORE with ARO force in order to avoid the enemy make you several damage in the first turn, and having options to reforming the "core". In most of games this what I played, core + some duos. Holding the line with the core and go into the enemy territory to push buttons with the duos, and in the mid/late game, reforming the core in the center of the table. If the enemy don't have some very concrete tools, in the latest part of the match having to deal against a 5 fireteam member isn`t an easy task. So, maybe, and I only say maybe, this how Winterforce was designed to play with. Of course, some changes in N4 can bring a new dimension to winterforce. So, we will see in not so long :) Best regards, Fellows.
I went up against Yuan Yuans, Varangians and Jaguars. Mines and overlapping lanes of fire make utilizing those sorts of troops quite difficult.
I guess grass is always greener on the other side as they say. I'm jealous of many things SWF got over White Banner. Namely more core and haris teams. True WB has more camo but i think SWF has enought MSV to offset that. The Vargar are just as good as the Ye Mao but get a core team. The Karhu seem good to me and so do the Nokken are not bad at all.
Which core and haris? More isnt necessarily better. Morats have a ton of fireteam cores, but that doesnt translate to in game play. WB actually has more MSV option than SWF and the lack of camo is only part of the issue. The one of the biggest strengths of camo is that msv mitigates it, but doesnt remove it. In addition, overall, SWF has a severe lack of hidden information where as WB has a significant portion with more to come. Ye Mao are basically a mix of Karhu and Vargar. Difference is Karhu can't link beyond a duo and Vargar's big trick only works when going against msv. Not saying Vargar or Karhu are bad profiles because they're not. They have some excellent kit. But the benefits of the Ye Mao mimetism and msv are going to factor in more frequently than the Vargar's albedo. In addition the ap spitfire on them and the soon to be AP HMG plus regent on the shang ji shouldnt be discounted either. SWF relies heavily on the nokken to bridge a lot of gaps in design and overall average unit cost makes taking advantage of the newer units that are well designed in a vacuum more difficult. Even the old Nisse is a tight squeeze if you want a fireteam of any sort.
