Kingdom Death is a perfect example of Kickstarter used correctly. Not to mention initial KS backers get their stuff 50% off or more in some cases, its ridiculous. Defiance is a mixed bag, if it stays KS exclusive, especially the things that were touted as "get it now or never", the the KS route made sense. Especially due to the metal mini board game niche. What is "not OK" is promoting a game as only available on KS, even trying to exploit psychological tricks like FOMO, and then selling it later through regular distribution. Not sure about you, but lying and false marketing is illegal.
Just because someone changes their mind, doesn't mean they lied to you. Where have you seen the slightest suggestion that Defiance will be available in a retail setting?
So, somebody enters into a binding contract with you, giving you something you want under an absolute and open understanding that this form of contract is the only way to get it, and in exchange for something you have and they want, stating that you need to commit to the contract fully and ahead of time. That there is a mutual exclusivity as the crux of the contract. Then, a year or two later, they "just change their mind" and provide the same thing to somebody else, outside of such binding argument and on the spot, with zero commitment or wait time. You say nothing worse than change of company policy, I say a fraud and lie as bad as a cheating spouse.
Might also need to qualify this with the fact that they DID open the KS to retail backers. You will definitely see some copies of Defiance in some retail stores (FLGSs, anyway). Just know that before anyone starts spitting bile about it.
Yeah, but the situation when stores are backers themselves, they had to enter the same kind of contract we did and there would be an extremely limited number of people able to pick up the same thing locally just because their FLGS happened to grab a few - that's fine. A special production sequence just for FGLS, would not.
I understand that. However, this discussion is veering towards assuming that is the case when we've had no indication whatsoever. I'm simply reminding everyone that there have been no signs that they will do a general release of Defiance and getting heated about the possibility of that happening is not exactly warranted at this point in time. My specific post was about Defiance showing up in retail (FLGS) stores and to not use someone finding 1 or 2 copies at their store as some form of proof that they've done a general release.
If I recall correctly, it was the first question asked at the seminar. Retail pledge tiers are not new and still to not obviate the comment about "Kickstarter only". It just means 'your' investment is during the Kickstarter period is delayed until you find it in a store.
Depends on when they change their mind whether it's a lie. If it's after they've signed a contract, explicit or implicit, such as when putting out promotional material for a product you're selling, then it's a lie and you'd be liable to uphold what your ad promised - on the other hand if it's prior to committing to a form of contract it's not a lie as such, for example information given in a kickstarter prior to locking the project in and finalising it... Important thing here is that kickstarter isn't a normal sales process and you're not entitled to anything until the project is set to deliver. Sort of a grey area where you sign your customers up as if they're investors but without the protection of the former or the kickback of the latter. People do tend to have a problem keeping this in mind, though :/
Let me get this straight, though - there hasn't been any sign anywhere that CB is planning on making Defiance a general release item, right? This is all just speculative anger, not real anger in response to actual events?
I would be happy if they sold it in retail, but as I think it was Koni noted, metal miniatures not really suitable for that market segment. Need to release a product with less than one hour set up time and it takes a bit more than one hour to assemble and paint 10+ miniatures. So, logically, if they do release it for retail it'll be with redesigned miniatures that are made in plastic similar to the Dark Souls Board Game miniatures (which are okay as long as the DSBG miniatures aren't designed with a lot of details that goes missing in print).
Ah, no. Making a promise in good faith and then breaking that promise is not "a lie". That's breaking an agreement. Knowing in advance you are not going to uphold that promise would be when it's a lie. I think it's the coronas! It makes people crazy! Everyone wash your hands!
A lie would be when you make an agreement already knowing that you were not going to uphold it. Changing circumstances leading to reconsidering that agreement would be... changing your mind. :P Like every Kickstarter screw up, for example.
I don't think I agree with either part. The first one would make your agreement a lie if you changed your mind without properly renegotiating the agreement, but it's all circumstantial since we're talking about promises on the future which is why we typically have laws regulating such things that are based on results more than initial intentions - after all what if you entered an agreement with the intention of not following through but then following through? On the second part I don't agree that the information in a kickstarter constitutes an agreement, it is a description of what they intend to do, not what they will uphold. Edit: I can't help but feel that the concept of a "lie" is both childish and overly crude for what it's being applied to. Almost like when politicians are comparing private lending to state loan management.
Right, CB hasn't said anything at all about changing the retail status since the Kickstarter. It's also worth noting that Kickstarter doesn't really assure you of anything and assumes no risk themselves. None of the "promises" made are contractually binding and the products can be delayed for an eternity or changed in whole or part without much recourse other than complaining. There may be some legal recourse in some countries, but overall you're screwed if a company fails. Not that CB is in that category, since they're pretty well established and don't want to mess up too much. Also, it's commonplace that they WILL have extra's to cover lost in shipment or damaged or whatnot. Most projects of the sort end up being sold off at trade shows or such, so even if it's not in regular game distribution, they might float a few copies later on.
