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What Do We Want In Code One?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Del S, Apr 1, 2020.

  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    NCO on Carlotta would be cool. She needs something. I dunno free agent is enough to make her taken. Free agent is a lot less appealing with no command token order docking on 1 combat group (making a small second combat group less appealing).

    I'd love if she got dogged, and Moriarty became as interesting as Billie somehow - climbing+ and a light flame thrower would be nice.
     
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  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I should have expained a bit more

    SWC is a control value. Its first purpose is to limit how many of certain weapons to bring to the game. The value depends, fistly on the kind of weapon/equipment, and after that, CB uses the "lore" to put taxes or discounts on its value, and lastly, in some very special cases, they use random values for balance purposes. The lore part in the SWC, is just the capacity of the faction to have the numbers of the special equipment, while the DISP is the accesibility to the troop. Nothing of that is related to maintenance. A gecko's maintenance in the lore is not much less than a lizzard or an anaconda (actually, I think it would be more.. even is CB decided to ignore the fluf of the gecko to benefit other factions)... but its weapons are another thing. They are 0 SWC cost ones, but one has a little tax on it, and I don't think is because lore, just balance issues. If it were lore related to maintenance, the mk12 in a kriza would be paying too, while scarface has cordelia for maintenance purposes, but he pays way more.

    I will not say that SWC is never related to maintenance, I cannot think any example for it, but there are a lot of the contrary
     
  3. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    @Armihaul It's nothing so specific like 'Geckos got this for free'. It's the overall place of the Gecko in a force that gets the feeling. Low SWC is an important factor in getting that.

    A profile that powers up at the cost of SWC would then make you feel like you need to support it with repairs and counter-hacking, and make you not want to put it in risky positions to use the specialist or hold territory, because this is now replacing one of your gunners instead of a free redundant gunner. It could be a good unit but it would feel different.
     
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  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure if I was able to understood you correctly. Geckos got nothing free (they are of the few ones that had to pay for tactical awareness for example, one of the most affected pointwise by it, and that also pay SWC for a 0 SWC weapon). If the SWC cost were because the trooper, then the combis one would be paying too, but is not.
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Firstly the Gecko's MK12 is about as big as a Kriza, that thing would require some specialised gear to maintain as opposed to the standard "man portable" variant.

    Secondly it's not uncommon for a MK12 to cost SWC (at least in older model design), and it's generally only applied when there are other very synergistic skills or equipment on the model, such as Fat2 and MSV2 on the Khawarij, MMLX on the MK5, Xvisor and MSV2 on the Agema. So with the inherent durability, size and multiple secondary weapons and generally low cost of a gecko it's unsurprising that it costs .5.
    As for the TA price hike the gecko is hardly the only TAG to get screwed by it, and is no where near the worst. The CA Xeodrons are in the same boat, the Iguana went from borderline to just bad, and the anaconda went from something I was more or less okay with taking on a regular basis to almost never.

    As for Scarface, there is a good chance he is paying for the HRL instead of the pair of MK12s.
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Gecko's MK12 (and any other TAG weapon) are usually bigger than the S5 weaponry, that's why CB decided to apply fatality to them. I didn't say is the only one screwed by it, but is one of the most affected, its main value as a TAG is beign cheap, and the semi-fixed value for TA affects it directly. TA costed the same for all TAGs below 75 points, and nothing to the ones over that cost, so it lost more of its advantage comparativelly, but yes, there were other TAGs affected, and the decision on which ones was arbitrary at most, not based to any balancing/lore issues. They got an increase of 6.89% points, the only one with a bigger proportion increase is scarface, which has not HRL for 1,5 SWC as a merc option (only the 2 mk12 and panzerfaust), so in there, the SWC is clearly unrelated to the HRL.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    What are you actually saying? I think you're saying that you want Geckos to have "a real gun".

    I dislike that idea because I find the low SWC, high durability option conceptually very useful in CJC and Nomads more generally (practically it's less useful because of systematic issues that N4 largely appears to be addressing). And all it really does is step on Iggy's and MB HMG's toes.

    For N4 the Gecko Duo of MB HMG, Gecko Combi looks quite interesting (the obvious issue being that unlinked BS13 HI HMGs are potentially not sufficient for bullying AROs if that's required).... But let's face it. I'm going to run TM duos again first *goes away and builds my conversions for TM 3 and 4*
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    not that, just trying to expose that, even when the gecko seems a "low" SWC platform, it still pays a tax because some random reason, like other nomad troops. It should pay 0 SWC for that MK12 and get a points check because now, beign cheap is their only "good thing", yet they are not so cheap anymore. But I wouldn't mind more extra weapon options.
     
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  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I understand but I'd also like to point out that I only take the combis and, despite technically not having equipment that requires SWC, the end result is an extra 13 BS Spitfire that has rangebands that are often better for what I'm trying to do.
     
  10. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    Mark 12s haven't really ever required and never should require SWC unless there is a secondary element to a thing that made it why. Khawarji are rocking Fatality L1 and MSV L2, for example.

    The Gecko is...well, a Chain-Colt and Blitzen I guess?

    Plus, they don't know what they are ever doing when it comes to these 'superheavy infantry' types they wanted to push.
     
  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's a cool concept it just struggles to work in the N3 rules/meta.
     
  12. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    It also struggles when they can't make up their damned mind if it's infantry or a TAG.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I actually think that's the Geckos strength.

    It fits a superheavy Infantry role while not costing so much that it overly constrains list building. But it does it with a few useful quirks that result from it being a TAG. This makes it interesting and useful in any situation a superheavy infantry is.

    Part of the issue with superheavy infantry is that their strengths (principally the combo of ARM+Wounds) have been systematically weak in N3 outside of some pretty specific circumstances (going first in Aquisition being one).

    Now admittedly, I think CB made a mistake inflating its price when Tac Awareness was added. But mostly because that was arbitrary based on the cost of the TAG (IIRC at ~75pts+ you got it for free).

    I also like the low SWC SHI: it allows adding a tough back bone to Nomads lists without overshadowing our flavourful Fire Support options of MI and REMs with Hacker support. That design aesthetic is what Nomads should be all about: it's unfortunate thats not really the optimal way to play Nomads *looks meaningfully at Kriza, Tsyklons and a lot of our MI SWC options*
     
  14. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Ideally a Gecko is a durable second spearhead that allows Wildcats to soak up as much SWC as they want. Fragile but high firepower troops are cool cuz you get a lot of firepower for cheap, but if you don't have a way to balance the resource they're using they just die without a backup.
    Again I don't think this is a good strategy yet but with rules and meta changes the frame is there for it to happen. A Gecko, Wildcat, Intruder, and a Hellcat can give you 4 high burst weapons good in different situations over different turns and still save 1.5 SWC for things like a Moran and hackers.
     
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  15. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    They are still sub 60 points which is incredibly cheap for what you get, with out taking SWC away from things that need it like LTs, Intruders, Morans, Tomcats and hackers.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Tomcats shouldn't cost SWC. They're a faction feature that represent the way the faction is supposed to be composed of multiple threat vectors.

    Honestly, drop the SWC tax on things like those but increase it on straightforward not MI / not REM guns. You end up with the same SWC cost overall but it makes playing Nomads like Nomads more optimal.
     
  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Agreed, it was something I was hoping they'd fix in the update. It feels real bad paying SWC for a Combi+LFT and DEP/dep.rep. Iconstantly try to fit a 19pt combat tomcat into lists but that .5 makes it incredibly awkward to the point where it normally gets cut for a Bandit or something.
     
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  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    The reason I mention that they didn't update profiles so much is because we can't assume they considered it and decided against it.
     
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the SWC tax could be tweaked a lot. If YJ gets discounts on HI with HMG's SWC, pano gets discounts on feuerbach's points, aleph on NWI's and so... nomads could get it on remotes or hacking related. Instead, tsyklons are the second generation remotes most expensives but not so efficient out there, and others like meteor pays too SWC

    CB told everybody that the "new" army plus the no-profile-books allowed them to check on profiles faster, so they would do it much more. That was on the preview videos for N3 (has been a lot of time), but there have been only 2, 3 "general revisions" (tac awa on TAGs and total inmunity), and one single profile check outside sectorial revision. I don't know what CB is thinking, but they need to check faster some things, but I doubt C1 profiles will be checked at all after their release.

    well, here we disagree. I don't think geckos are "incredibly cheap". They are cheap, yes, but nothing exagerated. I've got the similar results with a mobile brigada, which is cheaper
     
  20. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    This thread made me take a look at why I take Mowangs in IA but not Geckos in CJC, and how they compare inside my different playstyles.

    The Redfury in the Mowang and the Mimetism are obvious answers on why it is a superior "attack" piece, but I am left wondering why I am not more aggresive with my Geckos... and they are typically just a late-game pusher were I have cleared a lot of anti-armor ARO pieces and they can tank hits easily. They have given me games where zone scoring was important by simply moving into the other half and tanking hits. 3 wounds and ARM5 are good enough to weather combi fire.

    But in the end, it is playstyle. The mowang is there to hunt thanks to the RedFury shock and the mimetism plus it attracks less attention than "its a TAG!". In CJC I have other hunters: Bandits for midtable, Intruders for Camo and Mimetic enemies, linked Tsyklons or an HMG Brigada... and all that significantly cheaper than in IA.

    Switch the 2 Combis for a RedFury or MULTI Combirifles and I would send them more against the midfield skirmishers. I dont think that would be a signficant change of cost. Still, CJC is quite versatile itself that I believe changes like giving the Intruder and Wildcats 4-4 move will be more meaninful for us.
     
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