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Thoughts on Gunnar Trollhunter from Dire Foes

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Ghost_X, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
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    Guys, how do you think the fusi +1 BS is balanced?
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    C1 balance is going to be complete and utter trash. Harsh words but that's just a result of how the point system appears to be designed.

    Not sure how the points are rounded to full, but we end up with something along the line of badly optimized 15 point models in the same point brackets as well optimized 24 point models.
    There is no way to redeem that part.

    C1 will have an army builder, should really have continued to use the granular point system Infinity uses. That would have been crucial to maintain something remotely resembling balance.

    /Edit: I'm never gonna play C1, not a warcor, wouldn't use it even for demo games for friends anyway, doesn't matter to me. Imho C1 is very bad at translating the relatively good balance for infinity Factions into the easier system.
    For what? Just for the sake of people who can't count to 300 and are inept at clicking buttons in an army builder? Boy that looks like CB did dun goofed to me.
     
    #82 Teslarod, Mar 20, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I agree with Tesla, the game seems unbalanced and too simple for what it is, but at the same time the people who C1 is aimed at will probably end up getting the same tabletop value out of an 18 point model then they would a 24 point model.
     
  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Way to be dismissive of new players.

    You might lack the experience with various game systems and types of non-competetive players to appreciate it, but casual gamers are not into the whole "accounting" aspect of list creation. The simplified roster / point systems are a great success in Games Workshop games, for example. It's not for those who are keen to spend hours on shaving a list down to "perfect" 300/6 or 1750 pts in GW games. You want to arrive at the table and literally create a list as you pick models out of your foam - "this is five guys 1 pts each, this is 3 pts and 1 SWC, this is 2 pts, those two are 4 pts and 1 SWC each and my LT here is 1 pts 1 SWC. OK! My 20 / 4 list is done!".
     
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well if you wouldn't have cut out the part mentioning the ARMY BUILDER doing all the math for you ANYWAY, you might have understood things in CONTEXT.
    :D

    I'm not saying 30 isn't easier than 300.
    I'm saying 300 with an armybuilder is in no way shape or form as impactful as lumping in Line Kazaks with Order Sergeants.
    Or BSG Bolts and Magister Knights.

    Made sure to pick some easy to understand examples for you ;)

    My main concern is the new players. Who won't have any idea that a Nisse HMG is obviously better than a Bagh Mari HMG and costs a lot more points in Infinity. But wouldn't in C1.

    With how many stats and abilities troops have even in C1, it's ridiculous to assume people will be too challenged to click 300 points together in the usual app. Which is confirmed for C1 by the way.
     
  6. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

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    I will say Infinity has always been one of the easiest list building experiences i've had in wargaming. The builder helps a lot, and I found that the combo of SWC and normal points also helped guide my list building early on. The Code One granularity does feel like its too low to be fantastically balanced, but we'll see how it shakes out.
     
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  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Might not be an issue, given that Bagh-Mari won't be in C1 :P

    I'm concerned but not worried (at least yet) about balance and granularity of C1. On paper it seems odd, but many new things are when we contrast them to those we know. I reserve my judgement until I get some games in.
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Made it 3 posts in from the start of the thread before someone lit the dumpster on fire hahaha
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Can you imagine a game where you don't have to concern yourself with balance and just play?
    Gosh wouldn't it be nice if stuff was actually costed according to its power level so you could just start shoving minis across a board ASAP.

    You know, without finding out later that your list is actually worth around 250 points and the other guy was running 330 if you were playing Infinity, the game you actually want to play and were trying out C1 for to get into it.
    The game you were interested in for nice minis and because you heard factions weren't completely out of wack just to keep you buying more Speesh Marinz.
     
  10. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I mean I for one would give credit to CB that if they have made 2 well balanced games a 3rd which is a variant of the first is probably not beyond their capabilities....

    But then what would I have to throw out of the sandpit...
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Both Infinity and Aristea don't exactly built their list/team by themselves.

    You're going to be pretty disappointed playing with a Nisse Hacker Combi as your best active turn striker in a 10 Order list. Aristea has some comps that are better and some that are a bit antisynergistic.
    Not to say that there isn't a space for most choices, but not every combination of A, B and C turns out equally well. Two Jotums and a Seraph are a legal list and so are 30 Fusiliers or 50 Volunteers, none of these is probably a good combination for ITS missions.

    Specific point was a badly optimised 16 point Profile vs a well optimzed 24 point Profile both ending up at 2 points in C1.
    I'm definitely not the target group for C1, but looking at how C1 players are likely using it to get into Infinity (which is fairly balanced) that's just too much spread.
    Anyway feel free to disagree, hopefully won't matter if a Warcor is using prebuilt list for demo games and people move on from C1 fairly quickly.
    For C1 to stand as it's own game rather than a glorified tutorial this isn't a good start.
     
    Skoll likes this.
  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    So we, whose qualification is being good at writing know better criticism on the internet and maybe owning some models, have decided conclusively that this new starter set we haven't played, with rules we don't fully know, made by a company whose qualification is that they made the most well balanced successful wargame in history, isn't well balanced, based on a partial and limited preview.

    And we question whether they playtest at all, based on our hot take with zero play time.

    Give it a break.

    Maybe we could wait to see how it actually plays before coming to such strong conclusions?
     
    #92 Hachiman Taro, Mar 21, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
  13. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    it's called chess

    /s
     
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  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Funny thing, in chess white is considered the OP side, because black has to be reactive and white dictates the opening. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess ]

    There is no such thing as a balanced game. To seek the mythical "balance" is delusional and the goalposts of the definition of such are evershifting. A game should be challenging, enjoyable, entertaining - but it will never be "balanced".
     
    #94 Nuada Airgetlam, Mar 21, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2020
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can have black then. /s

    I can see Teslarod's point about price averaging changing the balance of units. But C1 doesn't have the OS and Line Kazak: instead you get the Zanshi. Fusi, Nox and Kappa's lumped together at 1pt (and probably Fugazi, Chaiyi, Ikadron and Kytta as well). You lose a lot of nuance doing this, but by limiting particular combos you can end up with pretty ok balance.

    Take the Hundun. On a 15pt size table: you can reliably fight them in the 0 range band. Provided Code 1 is profile limited as well as troop limited (which I think is a reasonable assumption), then you don't need to worry about the HRL Hundun's templates (which could be abusive on such a small table).

    Sure this opens up at large sizes, but at that point you're talking about the full C1 list being available to both players and the fact that it's reasonable that C1 balance starts to break down between 200pts (ie, the point at which Infinity is balanced).

    The final point is that C1 will be more tolerant to imbalance than Infinity: it's likely that inter-faction balance will still be less meaningful than inter-player skill/experience and this is likely to be greater amongst the C1 player base. So at the point that factional balance starts to become an issue, it's likely that players are ready to progress to Infinity.
     
  16. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I feel like if SWF can get a Nisse sniper into the fusilier link, and will then be running around with 4-4 Nisse HMG in a haris with trollhunter for gravy, they will be quite fun to play.
     
  17. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    It's a 54% winrate for white (2015) if both sides are equally skilled, so hardly OP.

    There's no perfectly balanced game as all things should be, but chess gets pretty close.

    centre counter gang 4 lyfe > white

    Imagine chess with AROs or dice rolls. Magnus Carlson gets stomped in a stunning upset where a pawn rolled 3 crits in a row.

    This more sums up my thoughts on this C1 thing. It's a very broad strokes form of play giving new players some very limited forms of list expression without being overwhelming. The good overweighs the bad there.

    Let's not forget the original lie (and it was a fucking lie! - you fucking 18 order shits) that got many folks into Infinity - 'you only need 10 models'. That's definitely a plus for getting new people - that relative low commitment. I see C1 as an extension of that marketing spin - 'you only need 10 models AND it's shit-easy to build a list'.

    While I'm comfortably settled in with Infinity and agree that the current army builder is one of the best on the market, I feel that especially people who frequent this forum who would be classified as hardcore consumers [or dare I say even whales], including myself in this blanket statement, and while we as 'diehard' players could probably recall points/lists in their sleep, for new players it's nicer not having to juggle/remember the 11 point dude vs the 14 point dude, nor have that 'shit im not using 2 points, actually no problem, I'll just upgrade a line trooper to a paramedic which increases my classified coverage god im so clever x3...'.

    It's just, oh, the little grunts are 1 point each, the bigger guys are like 3 points each. ezbake -> straight into games.

    I also sympathize in a way with CB and in general this whole tabletop gaming cottage industry. There's so many ways to 'relax and unwind' these days, so there's a real incentive to try to make that initial catch of players as broad as possible. And as players, we should support that - b/c we need people to play against. That's just how it is.

    If bringing in new folks through the C1 'you only need 10 models' marketing gimmick means sacrificing a bit of nuance - so be it.

    It's always hardest to bring new people in. But once they're in, it shan't be long till the new C1 folks will be agonizing over which of the armies should be their THIRD one to collect and the infinity forums/tournaments/LGLs will have new devotees for the soul furnaces.
     
  18. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Yea, then the other side, full of camo markers, throws an alabedo WITH msv1 (so fuck all your kit) BS13 5 man linked Marksman rifle HI and in a very point and click manner rains in your parade without a hint of effort.
    Whoever decided to include Lei Gong in WB is an idiot or was just trolling the game for YJ.
     
  19. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Lei Gong is overoptimized profile that should get reworked into something more balanced, but when you expect such units out there you don't base your defence on MSV sniper alone.
     
    the huanglong likes this.
  20. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    3 fugazi should be on point as well
     
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