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Guts roll, Prone and change facing

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Kwisatz Haderach, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    In our gaming group we had a very interesting discussion regarding how to properly do the Guts Roll.

    Here is 2 examples. For both examples our trooper is in the open and closes cover (partial and total) is more then 2 inches away. Our trooper doesnt have Six Sense of any level.

    1st one is easy.
    Our trooper is shot in the back from more then 8 inches away (out of his ZoC) by enemy trooper. Our trooper passes armour save and per Warning requirments - changes his facing towards enemy and goes prone per guts roll (he fails it volonteerly)

    2nd situation is more complex.
    Our trooper is shot in the back from LESS then 8 inches away (inside of his ZoC) by enemy trooper. Our trooper declares an ARO - Change facing. He fails it, passes armour save and he cannot use Warning to change facing , cause he violates the requirements for it. He also fails his guts check.
    And here is the main question - can our trooper change his facing towards the enemy trooper per failed guts roll? And if he can - why?

    Cause as per RAW - Guts roll forces you to get the Prone state, but doesnt grant you any movement, so you can't change facing of your model (as Prone isnt a move).
     
    #1 Kwisatz Haderach, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I think the wording on the Guts effects allows you to move those 2 inches regardless of the availability of cover, so you could move 2 inches and then you would be forced to go Prone if the closest cover is more than those 2 inches. The only rule is that you cannot move closer to the attacking model.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Generally Guts is played that if you can't move improve your cover, you just drop prone and don't move. This has been discussed previously ( but I can't recall definitively the outcome), hopefully someone can dig it up on the old forums
     
  4. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I also often wonder if I am playing this right.
     
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  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    The Q in the old forum was answered by CB staff. Going prone from a Guts roll allows a change facing.
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Link plx?
     
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  7. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Not able to find it now, but i clearly remember it because i was firmly of the opposite idea!
     
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  8. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Please note that the language of Guts uses language like "MUST" and then "OR", not "AND" when referring to moving and going prone. You don't do both, you do one or the other.

    As far as getting a Change Face when you go Prone, I'd like to see a reference on that as well.
     
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  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Most definitely not. You can only move towards cover if it does get you into better cover.
     
  10. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    So, IJW, what about change facing part?
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I don't know.
     
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  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Going Prone is possible by:
    - deploying Prone
    - entering Unconscious State
    - declaring the short Movement Skill Move

    "Failing a Guts check" is not a legal condition for Activation, so the most reasonable conclusion is that a failed Guts always has to grant a Move with a specific set of conditions how and if the actual position of the trooper can change. There is however a noteable lack of restrictions on facing and changes thereof (as a part of the General Movement Rules).
    • MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move, but there is no minimum. Troopers do not have to exhaust their movement when they declare Move.
    • By declaring Move, a trooper may go Prone or revert back to the Normal standing state at the start of his Movement at no cost. Remember that troopers have reduced mobility while Prone.
    • After Moving one of your figures, you can leave it facing any direction.
    With a legal Move present, activating Prone should be legal as per the Prone Rules and the General Movement Rules.
    With those criteria met, it should now also be possible for the trooper to end his Movement facing in any direction.
    The Move might have been 0" due to no better Cover available and already being Prone, but 0" Moves are still legal as per General Movement Rules.

    This is what I'd see as the most likely version to play this correctly.

    As a side note: a Religious trooper failing is Guts Roll with the enemy in ZoC is royally screwed because of this:
    • If the Guts Roll is successful, the troop can stand its ground and must do nothing else.

    Alternatively it is possible the Prone State is missing a Activation Condition for Guts (which I'd call highly unlikely as it would be unneccessarily complicated).
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Prone might not have Guts as an activation, but it certainly requires you to go Prone.

    The way I understand you're arguing is that 'the only legal way to go Prone is a Move, and you can change facing as part of a Move, therefore you can change facing if you're required to go Prone as part of a Guts but can't 'move up to 2"...''. Correct?

    That logic holds up, but it's hardly unequivocal.
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Yeah failing Guts requires you to go Prone, but the Prone State is lacking a way to directly enter it that way.

    So either failing a Guts isn't written as well as it could be and actually Triggers a Move of some sort (which would allow to turn around) or the Prone State is missing an Activation Condition.

    If a failed Guts Triggers a Move it wouldn't matter if you end up covering distance or going Prone at all, as long as it counts as declaring a Move turning on the Spot with 0" of Movement would still be a perfectly legal Move Declaration.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    By that logic I can activate Biolocator on a Kuang Shi and not have to go Unconscious, because Unconscious neither lists Biolocator nor going Unconscious without losing W/STR as an activation.

    I don't think the argument that Guts is not an activation for Prone will hold up to inspection.
     
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  16. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Guts says - you go prone. If you cannot reach cover - you are not allowed to move => you cannot change facing on that model. As far as i understand. Basicaly - you can shoot anybody in their back in such manner - they can only respond with Dodge-Change facing and thats it. They cannot change their facing after taking Saves. Thats pretty hursh, but it seems to be the only way to play it out.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Aside from the alleged CB staff clarification that you can change facing after suffering an impact :S
     
  18. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Thats Warning and it as its own rules :))))))
     
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not really, since Warning requires you do no other ARO. So if you Change Facing, fail, then fail the guts roll but are too far away to reach cover... you drop to the ground without turning? Since previously on this thread it was mentioned a CB explanation of how going prone after failing Guts allows to change the facing of the model, but provided no source, I used the "alleged" :p
     
  20. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    i can mention that i saw a dinasour, but without proof - its worth nothing.
    i understand that we are all in friendly community etc, but sometimes memory is doing tricks, that you are unaware of)

    P.S. - here is a joke from my previous job, was very popular there.

    man is washing his trousers in public toilet. While doing this he is wailing:
    - Cant trust anyone in this life. Just cant do it at all. God is a witness, i wanted only to fart.....
     
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