I find myself very uncertain about this seemingly very basic rules interaction. Situation: Setup: Trooper 1 and Trooper 2 are in cover next to a house. Near them is an enemy AP Mine in camouflage. Activation: AD Combat Jump Trooper declares the Entire Order skill Airborne Deployment: Combat Jump. The PH check fails and the AD Trooper suffers Dispersion. AD Trooper lands in LOF of Trooper 1, but not in LOF nor ZOC of Trooper 2. ARO: Trooper 1 takes the opportunity to declare Dodge. AP Mine activates activates and the template is placed so that it touches Trooper 2. Question: Will Trooper 2 have a chance to declare Dodge as well or does reacting to an Entire Order effectively remove the second ARO opportunity? Sub-question 1: In the event that the answer is that AROs can be gained and spent during the same ARO step; could you please elaborate on how this works mechanically within the rules? Sub-question 2: Assume sub-question 1 is in the affirmative and that Trooper 2 is a Hacker and reacts with Hack Transport Aircraft. Does being covered by the AP Mine's template prevent Trooper 1 from declaring a BS Attack to the AD Trooper's final position because of the micro-sequence created by Hack Transport Aircraft is causing Trooper 1 to declare reaction to the mine prior to the AD Trooper being on the table? (If sub-question 1 is negative - that is that AROs gained during an ARO step can not be declared in the same ARO step - then this question doesn't need answering)
My personal interpretation/understanding is that what happens when a trooper declares an Entire Order skill is: 3. Declares Entire Order skill 4. First AROs 5. Opportunity to declare a skill at this step is lost. 6. Second AROs This is in line with what I've long argued should happen for Coord Entire Order skill Hacking + Short Skill Hacking: troops who did not declare an Entire Order skill hack can declare Hack (step 3) + Short Movement Skill (step 5). This would also have solved the long-standing Entire Order Jump + Short Skill Jump issue. With the special timing of AD, you get the following: 3. Declares AD 4A. Declares HTA AROs 4B. Determine final position 4C. Declare AROs from final position 5. Opportunity to declare a skill at this step is lost. 6. Second AROs (so gets to choose to Dodge or BS Attack) I feel that this is the cleanest way to play the interaction, as it 'feels like it normally does' rather than feeling screwed by a weird rules interaction.
Well, you know... this is going to be off topic a bit, but that's going to be ignoring the fundamentals of AROs and would cheat the AD:ing player instead of cheating the AROing Hacker. Personally I think the archaic rule for Dispersion should be removed instead and simply have a failed jump mean the trooper couldn't make the landing at that time and remained in transit - that way all AROs will be taken with the same position and you could also allow Sixth Sense to work. (But then again, I'm weird in a way that I don't like random rolls massively affecting deployment skills in this way)
I'm confused. In your example Trooper 2 does not react to the Entire Order at any point. By being out of ZOC and LOF it doesn't generate an ARO. Trooper 2 is being hit with a template in Reactive turn without having had an ARO generated previously and would get the opportunity to Dodge as it has not declared or opted out of declaring any actions that order.
Yes, but when in the sequence can this be declared? The permission to ARO is gained after you've checked for whether you have AROs to declare and after they have been declared, and the exact mechanics of how an Entire Order skill fits into the Order Expenditure Sequence is not explained, so I'm wondering if the two ARO steps still exist and an Entire Order skill is actually just an order where you don't get a second Short Skill Step or if the structure of the entire thing changes to become one skill and one ARO step.
When the template is laid on Trooper 2, as per the template rules as that's the only point Trooper 2 would have had the opportunity to ARO at all. Now if it was a closer call on the ZOC that could change things. Say you figured you were out of ZOC of the AD trooper and opted not to ARO there, but it turned out you actually were in ZOC your ARO would be lost as the declared one was invalid. Same as if you thought you were in ZOC and declared Change Face, but discovered you were not in ZOC.
I don't quite think you're answering the question that I'm asking. Having a template placed upon you does allow you to ARO, but you still need to have a chance to declare that ARO - that's why the old Guts movement into a mine was so dangerous back in the old days. Where in this does that fit? Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. Step 4 or step 6? Does step 6 even exist when it's an Entire Order Skill, as per how AROs are declared after the active player has declared their skill? If step 6 doesn't exist, how can you declare Dodge during step 4 when you have already declared all valid AROs when the template is placed? Does both ARO steps exist, then that's all well and good, but the rules are a bit fuzzy on why that is. Edit: as a small side note, this is also important when it comes to Short Skills, as it will affect what skills the affected trooper might be interested in on knowing the second short skill.
The Guts into a mine is a different situation than you pose. That happens in resolution, after dice have been rolled. Your situation is before that stage of the order (despite the AD roll, that's an exception). It all happens in #4 of the list above. As the Mine detonating is not an Order or ARO it all happens simultaneously. Trooper 1 Declares ARO, 2 has none available. Mine template is placed, Trooper 2 now can Dodge due to the Mine rules specifically allowing such when affected.
It could be argued that no ARO is granted to Trooper 2 despite being hit by the mine, as they active trooper does not generate an ARO for them, but that ignores all the template rules, such as being hit by a ML template out of LOS.
There's analogous situations (basically anytime a Mine triggers at Step 6): 3. Alice, a Hacker, Moves. Bob is inside ZOC of Alice's Repeater, but outside Alice's ZOC and LOF. 4. Bob is not a Hacker so gets no ARO. 5. Alice declares Oblivion vs Bob. 6. Bob declares Reset. This causes a Mine to trigger, the Mine's template also hits Charlie. Does Charlie get to declare Dodge? This is what Template weapons says: "Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker." You can read that as permitting this timing: 6.A. Bob declares Reset. 6.B. This causes a Mine to trigger, the Mine's template also hits Charlie. 6.C. Charlie declares Dodge. But I'm not sure that's what its supposed to say. It certainly does allow this timing though: 3. Declare AD 4.A. HTA (Mines trigger) B. Determine final position C. AROs vs final position (Minea trigger) 5. Second short skill not available 6. Declares Dodge.
Trooper2 did not lose his ARO to the Entire Order. The mine activation happens as result of 1st ARO of Trooper1. That's when the Dodge is allowed. Initially Trooper2 had zero of all the conditions that allowed him to ARO (LoF to the AD, AD in ZoC, etc.). Once a condition appeared, and possibly also because it appeared soon in the sequence, Trooper2 is allowed to Dodge the template. The template rules themselves allow him an ARO (Dodge) as soon as he was affected by them. Indeed, if Trooper1 Guts'd into the mine instead and the mine covered both Trp1 and Trp2, Trp2 would not be allowed an ARO, as Guts are done at the tail end of the sequence.
So you're arguing each ARO step actually has a part that says "repeat until you have no new AROs"? @Nuada Airgetlam guts used to trigger mines but it no longer does. That was a reference to old rules.
No, but the mine triggers during the ARO step (as soon as the model triggering it declares his ARO) and the template is laid down immediately and not at resolution step (like Explode L1). Thus, if a model without ARO chance get caught under the template, i would allow a Dodge.
So a house rule then. But would you say that the official rules in the general case would force those troopers to wait for step 6 before they declare their Dodge?
The Dodge from templates without LOF only works at Step 5/6. That's what the rules say. Mines triggering aren't technically AROs. So it's not a case of the Mine triggering during Step 5 due to an ARO at Step 4, allowing subsequent AROs AR Step 6. So yes, you constantly iterate Step 6 until not further Dodge AROs are permitted. Thats one way to interpret that section of Templates. Whether that's correct or not, I have NFI?
They couldn't be AROs otherwise they would only work in reactive turn just like Perimeter Weapons. Thanks for expressing it in a better/different way than I was.
It seems like everyone is on the same page as far as how we would play it (I am certainly with you guys here). It also seems like it's going to take a command from high up to actually resolve it one way or another. The rules simply don't deal with this type of situation as they currently stand. I'd add this to the unresolved questions thread just to put it on CB's radar if it's not already there. @Arkhos94
I think we've answered @Mahtamori questions. It works as follows: 3. Declare AD 4.A. HTA AROs (Mine triggers) 4.B. Determine final position 4.C. AROs against final position (Mine triggers) 5. No declaration 6. Dodge at -3 due to being hit by a Template out of LOF. Note: this means that Dodge is not a valid ARO vs Explode Level X as a model hit with Explode Level X is permitted to declare Change Facing or Reset at Step 4 of the Order Expenditure Sequence and Dodge vs Templates out of LOF is explicitly restricted to be declared at Step 6. So the question that remains, for @Arkhos94, is "What happens when a figure that does not otherwise have an ARO is hit by a Template Weapon that triggers during the second ARO step, step 6 of the Order Expenditure Sequence, such as when a Mine is triggered by a friendly ARO?" A. The figure, if it is normality allowed to Dodge, is permitted to declare the Dodge ARO at -3 for not having LOF as described in the Template Weapon rules. B. The figure is not allowed to declare any AROs as they did not meet the requirements for AROing prior to commencing the second ARO step, step 6.
The Explode Template is placed when landing happens and so is present in Stage 4 providing applicable AROs including Dodge vs out of LoF. There is no Stage 6 of ARO in Entire Orders. All actions being discussed happen simultaneously in Stage 4, generating and such as applicable. Think of it like how Quantum Dodges generated.
