because the nomad player always have the first turn, and they start in impersonated state, or remain impersonated after trying to hack...of course. 2 KHD, a HD+, repeaters... how many points would you put there for passive play? around 75-80. And then spending 3 orders for them to remain hidden each turn? Is a high expenditure that. Are you putting an evo for coordinating and expending more than 100 points on hacking? have that ever worked? (using the same hyperbole, I am yet to see someone manage a tournament with that kind of play) if there is an important piece, and the enemy thinks that one of our hackers is a treat for it, I am pretty sure he will use his KHD to kill ours, even if it dies in the process. Our hackers are more important for us nomads than the enemy's KHD for him if they manage to do their job (and usually, KHD perform very well). And if he has 2 KHD, he can just try trinity and go 1vs1 die against each one of our hackers in the first try, and most of times there would be only 2 remaining hackers for the second KHD, which would have it easier and safer.
This is generally a losing strategy, and if they predictably do this, simply no longer making your hacker your Lt. will make then sabotage themselves every game.
well... this is something usually works for my rivals: taken out the hacker, there is no treat for their HI/buffed remote, so can go freely doing whatever he wants to do. I stopped using hacker lieutenants time ago because of that. But negating that a HD+ as the custodian is a weak point in a defensive haris seems absurd to me (all of this comes from that)
It's generally not that to get first either you win the roll and take it, or there is good chance that your opponent will take deployment to gain second turn for the advantage. You don't start in it, you go into it pretty early on (normally with the LT order) and the same goes after you hack. Also it's BJC you often have orders to spare. Passive? you say that like KHD zeroes aren't the best specialists we have access to and that you aren't using them in an active manner. Unless I have a more specific purpose in mind for it I find the EVO largely pointless. 2KHD and HD+ aren't really that much of an expenditure considering what you get access to. Has it worked? yes. its the core of my lists, and lately I've been either dropping a KHD for AHD or just adding the AHD. On repeaters, it's usually a combination of transductors, pi well/stempler, Dep rep Zero (primarily for the E/Mauler the repeater is an added bonus) and any incidental repeaters/pitchers that appear on other pieces I'm taking for other reasons, and that's just BJC things get much more fun in vanilla with the interventor, hecklers and morans.
I think you are ignoring the origin of the discussion. The "theorical" haris with moira MSR, healer and the custodian as a defensive haris, and the fact (or my thought) that the custodian is a weak point for that "theorical" haris. She cannot go into impersonation, and if the enemy has something that she will need to hack, sacrifing a KHD is a good piece exange, specially if, as you do, he brings 2 of them. And yes, is passive gaming what I was talking about, pasive, ARO, reactive, as you want to call it.
Yes I forgot how cybermask and fireteams interact when I wrote that. The enemy KHD (Zero analogue) only has around a 40% success rate against the Custodier, which while not great is something I'm probably okay with given the amount of resources needed to make it happen (order expenditure, opportunity cost of making a run on her, cost of the piece itself etc.). Being a HD+ there's very little offensive hacking that it is capable of and if you are taking it for such you're better off with a zero AHD instead. If you are expecting enemy KHDs why are you activating the Custodier in an area where you think she will get hacked (this is what we call a really stupid idea or a pure desperation play) instead of using your KHDs to melt their brains first? I knew what meant when you said passive, I was more questioning the approach of using those pieces purely for passive ARO duty when they have a lot of impactful applications in the game. I find that any of our KHDs are infinitely more useful in active and aggressive play both against conventional targets and enemy hackers, especially considering all the ones worth taking have a marker state meaning we can leverage surprise attack to help push things in our favour and help make other programs viable. They need to be out there clearing out enemy hackers first so you can use your AHDs and HD+'s with relative safety. Otherwise yes it is a weakness of the haris, but less with the haris itself and more not properly supporting it. Any way back to your point, I wasn't ignoring the initial discussion I was pointing out how that weakness isn't as scary as anything else in the game, also I find that evaluating units and fireteams (especailly in nomads) in a vacuum to be pointless as there will always be other other pieces in the list that support it and that it supports so I decided to explore the common option.
40% success chance is pretty much the highest you get in most realistic FTFs. I disagree with a lot of what Armihaul is saying, but BTS3 and no SSL2 Hackers die in a stiff breeze to KHDs. That makes Custodiers an easy to break link in a defensive Haris.
Significantly safer than it is in the current Kusangi haris which has given me little to no trouble in the past in that regard, I've lost the Custodier more to Guided missiles than I have to enemy hackers. Though I am fully aware that may just be obscene luck.
I’ve also never lost the custodier to hacking in the Harris. Kusanagi and the healer do a good job convincing hackers to stay away.
There's a difference between that and cracking an important ARO. I find that defensive links the hacker is usually seen as a point of vulnerability that can be taken out to strip the bonus.
Yeah I've fairly regularly had a camo khd skirmisher run straight for a normal hacker in a link to break it down to a 4 man, before taking on the big ARO piece. To the point it's probably worth setting a trap up with these days.
I'm a huge fan of laying traps for predictable behavior, but due to token state it's pretty hard to pull it off. That's probably my biggest problem, it's difficult to counter-counter (at least in my no-minelayer faction). A Lunakhod or Moran can provide koalas and a overlaying repeater for your own KHD. More of a defense than a trap but it's something to prevent them from getting more than 1 try. A lot of work to get that linked hacker thou.
This is one of the very rare occasions where the enemy's marker state is a downside: it prevents you getting an ARO until after they declare their Hack, which means that you can ARO with Breakwater from the HD+ and Skullbuster from the KHD. So long as your KHD is in a Marker state, they can't FTF the KHD. It puts you on good odds of taking them out, and not awful odds of having your HD+ survive. You can cover the HD+ by having your KHD deployed within ZOC of the likely position of an attacking Hacker or Repeater. In Bakunin this is easy, but it does mean both your Hackers are in roughly the same location from a Button Pushing POV. Less trap than it is deterrence vs savvy opponents. But in a list running 2 x KHD Zero, EMauler or Minelayer Zero, Custodier HD+ you could easily 'tip your hand' by revealing one of the two KHDs. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition a second KHD. HD KHDs in PanO or YJ are ideal for this as well. Spektrs tend to be too difficult to fit in, but I do like the Heckler KHD for it (it's often assumed to be a Jammer). Morans are really good bait I find: costs your opponent a couple of orders to clear the Koalas before they can activate their KHD to attack. They do have an issue where your opponent can deploy a HD KHD inside their ZOC and attempt to kill your HD in ARO vs a Supportware declaration. So you do need to be aware of that potential issue.
Maestro is vastly better. You're more likely to win the FTF, and if you do so you have the chance of an effect. Wildcat AHDs are OK. I did well with them + Moran + Bandit KHD last year. Carbonite gives KHDs the shits, particularly if they're left in an exposed position when the attack fails.
yeah I've found they often go for Jazz, so a Bandit KHD and a transductor in a place they can use to get at her is enough. You take a risk but Maestro + BTS 6 isn't bad odds of her surviving one attempt, add Skullbuster on a normal roll (who said only Redrum is ever useful ;) )from the Bandit and you're a good chance of stopping them trying it again, in more ways than one.
well... I never said thay KHD were not impactful in active. On the contrary, all of that discussion came from saying that an enemy KHD, which can kill interventors even linked in a core (I've seen it happen), will do easier against a custodian in a defensive haris. Of course, kusanagi is a treat...in active, in a fireteam that will move, so have it easier to avoid traps and so.
Take the mobile brigada with tinbot in your link with Jazz. They will face deflector lvl 2. And that will make Jazz a terror.
I will have to try that one day. Cost puts me off a bit though. What I have tried is an EVO with her, with mixed success. Kaleidoscope + rerolls on any failures is pretty good when you need it, as is overclock for B2 REM AROs
I really like that idea, and I feel like a Corregidor list with that setup would actually be a solid hacking threat. That said, man, it's hard to stomach 37pts 0.5SWC just for a Tinbot. That Brigada will probably never move or fire his combi, and that is a pretty insane tax to put on protecting Jazz. I think I'd just rather play vanilla :P
