You can't even be shot at if you're in Camo either. You can't be discovered and shot in the same ARO. (Provided you don't reveal yourself)
I agree with this. I just want to clarify it isn't changed by the last bullet under cancellation of the impersonation state: The cancellation of Impersonation-2 state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Impersonated trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement. Edit: If it's cancelled for the whole order does it make the attack valid as it is revealed as an enemy?
A skill needs to be valid both at declaration and at resolution to be valid. (An example of that would be that you can't declare Shoot as an ARO versus someone you do not see in-case they walk into your LoF after, in that example the skill would be valid at resolution, but was not valid at declaration) So the problem with shooting IMP2 is that the skill is not valid at declaration (since the roll to discover is at the resolution) and at the time you would want to a BS Attack, you declaration would not be valid. However, if someone reveals themselves (via them ARO'ing or declaring a short skill for example) then they are revealed for the entirety of the order.
Camo is an enemy marker state and a valid target for attacks such as intuitive. It's also specifically called out in discover as a valid option. Impersonation is not a valid state so they are not the Edit: I misread. I agree you can't discover and shoot in ARO. You can in your active turn against a camo model. A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). Following the previous, the Camouflaged trooper declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot. The Camouflaged trooper enters base to base contact with a model. The Camouflaged trooper is successfully Discovered. The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.) The Camouflaged trooper becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state In either case, the trooper's CH Level is downgraded to CH: Mimetism. The trooper recovers his original CH Level when the Retreat! situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the Camouflaged state. To regain the Camouflaged state, the trooper must follow the Activation rules. Whenever the Camouflaged state is canceled, replace the Camouflage Marker (CAMO) with the trooper's model, facing whatever direction the owning player chooses. When you replace one of your Markers with a model, you are required to share all Open Information relative to that trooper. The cancellation of Camouflaged state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Camouflaged trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
I am specifically talking about ARO in the example that you quoted. Neither Discover+Shoot (it's 2 orders) or Intuitive Attack (Entire Order) are valid options in ARO.
This isn't true. The special manoeuvre in Discover doesn't even require the enemy to be in a marker state, nor in any state that even requires a prior Discover roll to be made.
Yeah, I can easily be wrong as I've only been playing a year, but I don't understand what you mean here. Discover says this: This Skill allows the user to locate enemies hidden in the form of a Marker, forcing them to reveal the Trooper, Weapon, or Equipment the Marker represents. I mean I guess the text block doesn't say the enemy must be in a marker state but do you automatically pass or fail the discover? As the model isn't in a marker state. When would you actually do this? I understand the argument to be about the viability of targeting an impersonator as it's friendly until it isn't.
An impersonation marker belonging to the opponent is an enemy trooper hidden by an enemy impersonation marker that is considered friendly to my troopers. They never become friendly, as this would stop my opponent from spending orders on it, and the rules never handle the distinction between when they are an actual hostile trooper and when they are not. I'm seriously arguing the rules are far too badly written at handling this to claim this restriction to the granted privilege - if this restriction is even meant to exist. If the restriction is not meant to exist, then the rules are fully without controversy on the topic of Discover + Shoot vs IMP-2, only moderately unclear regarding a special case of the rule.
Discover rules and effects can, in fact, be used on your own troops. Discover only requires a target without alignment qualifier. There's one corner case that may happen where this might be useful that has been brought up on the forums as theoretically possible, though I have never heard of anyone putting it to practice.
From the perspective of a trooper wanting to declare Discover + BS Attack the distinction between "considered an ally" and "an ally" is negligible. The Special Manoeuvre wouldn't be an eligible declaration against an ally, so it also wouldn't be eligible against a perceived ally.
I think of the Discover+BS Attack manoeuvre as breaking the normal timing of Infinity, so I'm unclear on why the Friendliness state of the Impersonator is not changed. Am I thinking about it wrong? In my head it's: Declarations: Attacker: Discover Camo Marker: No ARO Attacker: BS Attack Resolution: Discover is rolled, passing breaks the camo state allowing for the BS Attack to have been declared legally BS Attack is rolled So I've been following the same logic with Impersonation-2 - with the BS Attack declaration being retroactively made legitimate because the model is now on the board after the Discover is passed, before the BS Attack is rolled. If I'm thinking about it wrong, could I get a walk-through of the proper order of operations? I think it would be helpful to include a caveat in the Discover wiki page as well, because I don't think this interaction is clear as-is.
And as has been detailed, parts of this declaration is not permissible against a camouflage marker and the entire rule is specifically an exception to the normal targeting rules. I find this argument fairly flimsy and seems to rely mainly on an interpretation of Camouflaged State that adds text that's not in the official rules.
An attack needs to be both valid at declaration and at resolution. BS Attack is not valid at declaration versus a friendly, so it can't be declared. It is similar to how you can't declare a shoot ARO versus someone you can't see on their first order. Even if they were to walk into your LoF on second order and make the resolution valid, the ARO was not valid at declaration because you did not have LoF then.
And I did understand that that was the explanation we were provided, but I don't understand why Discover+BS Attack isn't an exception for Friendliness when it is an exception for the Marker state. I guess what I'm asking is why is the line drawn there instead of anywhere else? Right now it seems arbitrary to me, so I'm assuming there's some step in the order of operations I'm missing.
Because the wording for Discover + Shoot says... "allows the trooper to make a Discover attempt and then a BS Attack against the same enemy". The breakdown of the maneuver is also explained as being used against an enemy. This sentence works for Camo, as the Camo is an enemy, but it doesn't work because a Impersonator is a ally.
There it is, thank you, @Diphoration ! For what it's worth, I think what would help me and possibly others going forward with this and possibly similar rules is if the word Enemy was treated as a keyword. I had been reading it as a word which could just as well be replaced with Troop, or Target. "Enemy Model" might be good, clear wording which I think could be used consistently throughout.
The distinction of "enemy" is very important for everything that's related to Impersonators. That's also why Mines don't trigger on Impersonator! The rules make clear distinction between "Trooper", "Ally/Friendly" or "Enemy" whenever they need to determine which action is legal versus which target. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment
