As mentioned initial idea needs filing and sanding. You could make Guts Movement like Dodge Movement too, that already has the 'you're not moving if it's your Active Turn' component built in - always assuming some underlying streamlining being the goal. TBH now that I think about it Guts is currently pretty abuseable in your Active turn due to the amounts of planning you can do with it against guaranteed non fatal/consequential hits. Not sure if I'm the only one abusing Flashpulses, Chainrifles and Mines it to improve Order Economy with troops that don't mind eating a hit to edge out another Order spent on killing. 'Oh no that unopposed Flash Pulse hit my HMG on my last Order! How conveniently that gets around me playing overly aggressive and not investing an Order to secure my troops position by going Prone.' 'My Jotum blasts your ARO piece, also tanks that Mine hit and fails his Guts into Total Cover - then he and some Combi Rifles enter SF staring at their respective walls (thanks backarc FAQ) with a Coordinated Order.' Pretty neat to have Guts around for that kind of stuff. I'm glad to work with it. Agreed that the current system works well enough that I'd rather see a lot of other stuff get a touch up before it.
Wait til you find out Warning! also applies in Active. ;) I’ve certainly done the unopposed Flash Pulse to get my Intruder out of LOF to recamo. Bloody WarCor missed :’(
Deployment phase and the weirdness of Open Information skills. It seems to me that in order to make sense of the Deployment Phase, most people play with the below set of unspoken rules Private info on Minelayer, but decision to use must be made prior to making any rolls for the unit. Obligatory announcement on all Open Information changes 4 distinct and formal deployment phases (Main 1, Main 2, Reserve 1, Reserve 2) All deployment in each deployment phase being subject to "all at once" timing* All Open Information announced at end of each phase All Private Information relevant to an unit deployed or held in AD/HD written down at end of each phase Strategos 3 announced at start of opponent's Main deployment phase. I would love it if this was formalized in N4. Why do I write this? Well... what does Minelayer and Strategos have in common? They're both Open Information skills used in the Deployment phase. This sparks the questions; Do I need to announce who of my miniatures is using Strategos 2? Can I even use Strategos 3 if I deploy second and don't have my LT on the table when opponent is deploying? When do I need to place the mine, and does this change in timing if I Infiltrate to opponent's side? Could I even hold back the placement of a mine to hide a Hidden Deployment reserve trooper? Can I be an absolute douche to my opponent and inform them of Strategos 3 when they thought they were done deploying? P.s. Also this is on my wishlist Private Information for Strategos and Advanced Command * so you can move stuff around if you misjudged base sizes and so on
I'm sorry, but I don't understand why there is any confusion about how Minelayer works. Bullet #3 in Minelayer specifically addresses it: "If the user of this Special Skill deploys using any level of the Infiltration Special Skill, and fails the PH Roll, then in addition to the effects shown in the Infiltration Special Skill rule text, the Minelayer will lose the Deployable Weapon or piece of Equipment, subtracting it from the total of available uses if it has the Disposable Trait." That part makes absolutely no sense if you do not need to place the mine at the same time as the unit and before your roll.
Yup, but I haven't heard of anyone who plays it that unless they're also rolling for infiltration, mostly because it is implicit and written only in the line dealing with infiltration.
Really? I've never seen it played otherwise. As to your HD question (missed it at first), why would you not be able to hold back using an Optional skill and not place a mine with a HD unit and the Minelayer skill? I get that you are making hypothetical arguments for a point, but using objectively wrong ones doesn't make the point you were trying to make.
No no no, you're missing the point on HD trooper. Example: Daoying LT already placed. Guilang Minelayer already placed. Ninja is held back. Place Ninja in HD and the Guilang's Mine last and at the same time. Please keep in mind the thread you are in. I initially started writing this in the Rules forum but thought better of it because it's asking for clarity and uniformity in the rules, it's not asking a question, and that it's likely to happen in N4. These aren't questions that needs answering, they are illustrations on conclusions that someone can come to by starting off with the wrong assumption or by simply not agreeing that the line on Infiltration actually puts a hard limit or by reading two mechanically apparently identical rules and applying the same logic found in one of them on to the other. Some of these conclusions I see often in real life and on the forums, e.g. they'll want to place Yuriko, then a Keisotsu, then a Ryuken HRL, then Yuriko's mine so that the opponent won't know which of the camo markers is a mine and which has a HRL. You say this is obviously incorrect play, but from what I can tell from people I meet and on the forums this is not, yet I have to ask; do you play Strategos in the same way so that Strategos 3 becomes unavailable if deploying second or when holding the LT model back (because the LT won't be on the table)?
This is an excellent point. It usually doesn't come into play in our meta because the other player is generally not around while someone is setting up. If rolls are required, they are called over for those specific rolls, but otherwise deployment is done with a pseudo all-at-once idea. I'd actually really like it if this was codified in the rules.
I do get what you are saying, but the premises you are using are illogical and unfounded in rules as they exist and do not support your valid argument for more clarity. Addressing it as you do in your second hypothetical is far more effective at getting across your intent. For Strategos, yes it works if you are deploying second because the trigger for the skill is different than other skills, making it not a "mechanically apparently identical rule"; "In order to benefit from this Level of Strategos, the user must be his army's Lieutenant." That is triggered by your list building, not by deployment. To argue otherwise would mean that, even if going first, you wouldn't be able to benefit from the skill if you held back the unit. Edit: My point initially was that your examples confused your purpose due to being blatant rules misinterpretations. By coming up with that second hypothetical you were able to better convey the issue you meant to. Perhaps a better way to form the question would be, "There are potential points that could cause issues in deployment timing. For example, are my two deployments timed the same using "all at once" or is there a gap between them making it a large "all at once" and then a short second (or using Strategos, two). Clarity in the rules over how that is to be done would go a long way to helping prevent future confusion and arguments"
It could certainly use some clarification. I've run into this issue too, playing around with TAK. The viability of their Camo mindgame changes a lot if a player is deploying all the Camo tokens as individual units, as opposed to being able to mix-and-match the order in which Camo tokens are deployed. I typically see California veterans (including top-ranked ITS players) deliberately walk away from the table so that their opponent can deploy freely. The goal is to only see the "end result" of an opponent's deployment, and not the "procedure" of their deployment, which can potentially reveal Hidden Information.
I like the idea of courageous/religious troops being able to advance with their guts if they pass a WIP. I think guts works fine otherwise. Being able to use it to tactically take cover when facing overwhelming fire superiority seems entirely realistic thematic and appropriate. Adding stunned (even a paired down version) to failing a guts roll while sounding interesting would just add to the failure cascade of losing a FTF roll with added book keeping and complexity so I don't think it would be fun or a benefit in the end. It it'd make annoyance rather than quality AROs even more prevalent, and gimp active turns that have a little bad luck.
I'd like to see Fireteams available in Vanilla. 5 Linetroopers being unable to link in their home faction was always weird. Sectorials should remain the ones who can run all the mixed and special options and ofc Vanilla would often simply not have the AVA to run the same Links as full 5 man core links with a spare or two. One of the bigger issue with Vanilla Factions is all the "garbage" they have lying around in terms of Sectorial troops that are only viable when part of a link. The only Vanilla Faction properly solving this problem is Tohaa and they do it by having free form Fireteams for almost everyone. Triads themselves are a Tohaa tool and should not be infringed on. But what about 5 Alguaciles building a core Link in Vanilla Nomads? Pitting another option against the usual cheap REM and Warband spam. Not the crazy Fireteam options or Wildcards, that's still gonna be what Sectorials are about. Going from there we have room to do some things that are only possible in Vanilla. Joint operations cross Sectorial Fireteams. Limited mostly to Duo/Haris, instead of full Core or other forms of Fireteams. Duos in Vanilla are currently possible but very badly implemented with ridiculous restrictions on the easiest to use but least used type of Fireteam there is. Running two solo midrange troops in Vanilla is usually not the best of ideas at the moment. You'd rather go for a high performance gunner and a cheap Specialist with forward deployment. Pretty sure I've never seen a Vanilla list with Fatherknight Duo, but Plenty Swiss Guards + ZC KHDs. That's before factoring in you have to also buy an EVO bot and invest Orders/Command token on top. The current options are overly cautious and too restrictive. An Orc + Santiago "Boarding Duo" would be an example of something that currently doesn't exist anywhere but wouldn't break the game. Allowing something like this would be a way to make two troops not doing much of anything in Vanilla a viable choice to improve your Order economy. Same-Same Duos are pretty reliant on a cheap Specialist/Utility Profile + SWC gun existing within that Profile. Allowing to mix and match several troopers who wouldn't get to link anywhere else (and ofc still limited to 1 active Duo at a time) looks like an easy way to diversify the game. Can't stress enough that this isn't going to force Vanilla players to use a Linetrooper Core and a "best of" Duo every game. The current Vanilla list trend of running high performance Active Turn Piece like a Kriza Borac or a TAG and spamming bodies/Warbands is going to be a tough competitor no matter what.
Maybe maybe not. It makes sense for a limited set of puritan fireteams in vanilla, but at the same time it'd also kill off the black ops nature of Infinity a tiny bit more. What I really like about vanilla factions, and O-12 in particular is well designed for this, is the fact that each piece has a purpose that is not "stand around looking dumb while this one dude pulls all the weight". After returning to O-12 following two years of ISS and IA, list building no longer feel as restricted by filling out a fireteam, and I fear it actually will because a defensive fireteam is so very good to have that it'll no longer force you to be as creative in dealing with defence issues. Duos, on the other hand, sure. Let them run free!
You're honestly running something else than REMs and Varangian Guards as Order Monkeys? A Kappa Hacker to unlock Rems/Supportware, sure. But what point do Kappas have in O-12 Vanilla other than that? O-12 is fairly unbloated at this point. Looking at older factions like CA, Nomads or PanO Vanilla... they're a graveyard. You're not touching Linetroopers unless it's 3 baseline somethings to hide your Lt. Stuff that stands around and looks dumb is precisely what you avoid like the plague in Vanilla. You usually go for double duty of ARO/Utility/DZ defense or the cheapest Regular Order you can get. Jaguar Order Monkeys are a common sight in Nomads, Alguacile are pretty much only Lts and Hackers.
My one and only order monkey in any given O12 list is the Lieutenant. And normally she spend the last orders of the game to do something vital anyway.
This is tying in nicely with the line about Frenzy units in Yu Jing forums, no? Seems like there's a clear preference for using troops with frenzy if such exist... I don't typically run messenger remotes, no, I find that to be a bit of a personal preference more than anything and my Varangians are there for a specific reason that is not just generating orders. If I did not tactically need smoke, Kappa would be far superior (which I've used the LT/FakeT profile of and none else, but usually one or at most two, 3 is a bit excessive of most things, particularly with Cho around)
I'd like to see AVA Total removed from the game. AVA can be pretty arbitrarily high, but from a competitive player perspective if I'm ever writing a list where the difference between (for example) AVA10 and AVA Total actually matters, a design and playtest team somewhere has fucked up. Edit: ...or I'm memeing really hard in which case a benevolent soul would probably step in to stop me anyway.
I like this I agree impetuous has to go. Most of the game's price problems are tied to skills that have negative points costs. Besides, thematically it is stupid. I can already make a level headed and calculating Sun Tze break cover and get shredded by overlapping TR remotes and core links out of character, so why do we cause so much trouble to make warbands overpowered and undercosted with messy impetuous rules? What percentage of players even get into INFINITY for warbands? Sci-fi, Cyberpunk, Anime inspired, black ops, sure. Khorne berserkers and orks should be a niche, not the heart of the game. Just fuck impetuous off already.
I think the troops that get AVA Total are usually the ones CB don't see a reason to limit access to, usually Line Troopers carrying some SWC guns and the full run of Specialist profiles. They're there to fill holes in capability and Classified coverage if you can't find room in the rest of your list, not to be first-rate choices (LTs excepted), so outside a few weird cases like NCA or Bakunin Morlocks there's not much point in restricting them. Especially MO Order Sergeants, who have to carry Fireteam, utility and Skirmisher duties all from the same unit entry.
