LSG, Contender would be a great 'filler' profile to bring down the overall cost of the link. Fits a slightly Irregular force of thugs well.
Hmmmmm, I’m not a fan of the contender myself, why not give them a Multi Rifle and be done with it? If any trooper needs a Red Fury in their hands is these guys, they already have shotguns, what they need is grenade launchers (hand grenades with ph10 is bad ok?) either basic Normal types or Stun Grenades (why not both???). Of course they totally need to be specialists, Forward Observer is a fitting one for these guys, Hacking devices also welcome.
More expensive options are fine and dandy but half the trouble is you're dropping 22 to near 30pts on an LI who isn't even shock immune or carrying SWC. They're not made a lot more attractive if the more costly gear still has to run with 22 pts shotguns minimum.
Hopefully N4 fixes SMG costing, or better yet, preserves it and fixes SMG over-performance. SMGs would be great on Bao.
I think Bao are far far too iconic (yay buzzword!) for both Yu Jing and ISS to simply leave behind, but it's clear the current equipment just doesn't work and doesn't really say "police brutality" the way it should. I could see riot stoppers on their combies (which means a different attachment type) and dogged. The weird long-range focus on troops that are meant to be door kickers is also atrange, but they fill a hole between Hsien and Rui Shi that I can see filled by a new Huang Di unit, though hopefully the X-visors go as well and in that case also the sniper. More than that there's a bunch of ways to make them keep their performance up without becoming Rui Shi on two legs, MadTraps being one of them. Edit: basically Xi Zhuang with a Riotstopper and MSV2 + Bio2 instead of FO. Extra points if they get to Fireteam with Rui Shi for the luls.
How about something with Stun ammo? Maybe a new DTW to contrast the riot stopper? Adhesive ammo sounds too "good cop" to me while Bao would probably prefer something like a taser. This would also fit their potential new role as a cheap-ish cheerleader/deployment zone defender, with a reasonable chance to stop an alpha strike with a stun template - not as strong and permanent as adhesive ammo, but cheaper in comparison and more tailored for the reactive turn.
Honestly, you can't fix the baos if you don't fix the pheasant at the same time, as they're the 2 black sheeps of ISS and they're stuck together with absolutely horrendous fireteam options. Just giving the pheasant a non-coc, non-hacker specialist haris profile, or allowing a bao+pheasant duo pheasant would make them all a much more interesting choice already.
Bao weapons should be cruel and light, given they are not usually going after military targets. Assault pistols, submachineguns, light shotguns, light rocket launchers, shock marksman rifles, red fury. If frenzy discount is still a thing in N4, give them that to show their fanaticism (it will never activate anyway). How to make the Pheasant not suck horrible ass is a riddle for the ages.
Frenzy is a nice idea to keep the cost down. Pheasant MSR with Marksmanship LX might become more relevant, if Lunah is phased out due to the time skip and if Baos get redesigned and lose their MSV 2 Sniper loadout. Maybe shave off a few points by reducing their CC and/or Martial Arts and give them CoC on all loadouts. Haidao, Guilang and Daoying MSR will still be strong competition in the sniper role, though, so they need something unique to stand out.
If frenzy/link interaction EXPLOIT is still a thing in N4 then I'm done with this game. That's what I won't allow, Gutier continuing cheating on his system. That's what N4 is for: to streamline rules and recalculate units costs in order to make the game fair for everyone and that's what I expect to happen. It's not only me, many people have asked for devs to put an end to the frenzy exploit. So either considerably reduce the generous discount units with frenzy suffer at current or make it work. Frenzy should trigger immediately in the order the wound is done and it should affect fireteams. It's easy to do rules for that, as it's a disadvantage in exchange of a generous discount then make severe rules: - Whenever a fireteam containing one or more units with frenzy causes a wound then the full team becomes impetuous at the end of the order, regardless of the link member that caused the wound had frenzy or not. - An impetuous link team behaves like an impetuous unit (must move towards the nearest enemy unit and can't claim cover) with the exception the player only needs to expend a single regular order in order to prevent the impetuous move for the full link. Yes it's harsh, but all of a sudden units start behaving like they should: Riot Grrls become the undisciplined bitchs they are instead of the extremely efficient profesional soldiers they are at moment; and knights and samurais can finally get extra movement orders to close distance with the enemy and behave like the speehs murines they are "knowing no fear" against enemy fire. Failing to that then devs'd better recost/redesign those units and get rid of their current frenzy status.
You say "good cop" I say, you should consider what happens if you aim that thing towards the head instead of the body. Jokes aside, a stun DTW would only make sense from a game play perspective on a really cheap unit such as a Kuang Shi or a Chaiyi. You don't want that on a 20+ point single wound unit. Edit: In fact, stick that Stun DTW on human EVO and basic Baggage REMs! I think the more important fix regarding specialist profiles is to get a specialist Bao, preferably Killer Hacker. Still needs to fix the Pheasant, and besides removing CoC from a few of the profiles (seriously - they should pick 3 profiles and ditch the rest and then have a CoC profile and a non-CoC profile), Pheasant is probably the place in Yu Jing that makes the most sense to turn into a Yadu-style LI. I seriously hope that frenzy discount stops being a (significant) thing in N4. Or at least that it starts working immediately and also while in a Fireteam.
Frenzy is doing good work to make at least two whole Sectorials viable at all - MO and Steel Phalanx. You can hardly call either of them broken. It does exactly what it is supposed to do for the most part - make a troop with heavy investment into CC and BS stats and weapons viable on the game table. Hospitalers are flat out better than Orcs in all regards while linked. And cheaper. Yet they're hardly OP, which in conclusion makes the Orc the problem. Domaru are still pretty meh, despite Frenzy on them. You're looking at the wrong end. There's always going to be something to exploit for an edge or an advantage. G:Jumper making Posthumans way too cheap. Mutts having 5 choices for FTF rolls on a 5 point trooper in between Pistol, Smoke, Jammer, E/Marat and Chainrifle. Fatality L2. Dazer Minelayer. And of course good old Camo as a Skill still being amazeballs. Changing Frenzy and killing the discount behind it requires a massive redesign of entire troop classes and Sectorials. At the moment it doesn't even do anything broken, just looks good on paper.
Are you sure it is Janzerker who's got the wrong end of the stick when it seems to be a strong trend that stuff with melee focus needs frenzy to become somewhat cost efficient while stuff that doesn't have a melee focus seem not to need it? It doesn't seem like people tend to have a problem with the umpteen troops with Frenzy and melee focus, but that it's stuff like Libertos that they do have a problem with. I don't know about you, but I see a pattern here.
Option one: Dam 12 and 2 more points per SMG Option two: Break the SMG into at least three weapons, SMG which is ammo N, current costs. PDW, the current SMG for Ariadnan use mainly, adds 2-3 points. MULTI PDW for more hi-tech forces. Combi Rifle costs. I think Frenzy on Bao would be a fix to Pheasants too, and a countermeasure to the Frenzy discount. Riot Grrls and the like kinda balance theirs with being 30+pts each (ymmv on how effective that balance is of course) but Bao would be dropped to like 20pts average assuming light shotguns also go and some new weapons options arrive. So the way to counter the Frenzy needs a relatively costly Pheasant to keep them as a team. Rather like Senor Massacre and Jaguars, Myrmidons and officers, and that kinda thing.
Exactly, Frenzy isn't the problem. Super cheap shit cheating the formula (with or without Frenzy) is. It's never about the available framework and always how you mix and match what is possible. Doesn't matter if that's the existing Libertos, Galwegians or Warcors. LSG + Panzerfaust being cheaper than a Combi isn't a Problem if you need to shell out for a Wu Ming/Magister Link Filler to get access to that weapon combi. They're pretty damn good for what they do. Main source of all problems is how the points formula is built right now. It's a mix and match of flat rebates, flat cost, linear increase in cost for statpoints and the occasional % based modifier. As long as a SMG is the same -5 points for a Libertos as it is for Patsy compared to a Combi that won't change. Combi Rifle base cost is about 8 points, so a basic Fusilier with a Pistol would be a 2 points Regular Order - which fortunately doesn't exist in that form. However the same system that allows Warbands to be 5 points. The same Fusilier with Ex Imp, Irregular, no Combi, BS10 and Cube is negative points. Again doesn't exist in that form. Still allows 5 point models with CC23, MA3 and PH14 to exist. While still sporting Chainrifles and Smoke Grenades. A Metro HMG cost +8 points and so does a Swiss Guard one. Without fundamentally changing this, you will only move the problem to the next best thing instead of fixing it.
Sure, but there's a bunch of DZ-deploying melee focused units that don't have frenzy that are kind of striggling with efficiency, so the rules at the moment is basically in a positition where those need frenzy or the melee focus needs fixing and frenzy removed from the to-be-fixed units. E.g. you either cheat so units like Pheasant can get some work done as well (nevermind that frenzy doesn't suit their backstory) or you fix so that Myrmidons shouldn't need frenzy. Of course, that ignores that melee focus seem to work decently on units with the typical skirmisher skills who get a shortcut on the biggest disadvantage (movement inefficiency)
There's a bunch of other problems in there. A properly melee oriented Skirmisher with anything less than a DA CCW is a massive downgrade. Ninjas don't have Frenzy and kinda don't work. The most used Profile by a mile is the DA CCW, Tac Bow, KHD. Which has a desireable Specialist Skill, a DA CCW with Anitmaterial for missions and a huge rebate thanks to the Tac Bow. Oniwabans work because MA4 with a Mono CCW and a BSG/SMG are a massive upgrade compared to the pricetag of a Combirifle Ninja. But they're still 2nd class citizens to Saito Togan and Shinogu (unless you value that Infiltrating TO BSG a lot). Bandits abuse being Irregular and LSG mainarmaments (the OG cheap weapon before SMGs were a thing) to get themselves down to viable point costs instead of Frenzy. You could easily find a way to make Myrmidions viable without Frenzy (drop their PH and BS, give them Hyperdynamics = cheaper and more survivable against their main threat), outsourcing the stats not everyone needs all the time to the link leading characters (BS). I for one like the Frenzy solution better. Pheasants are overbloated with skills, stats gear and guns on all Profiles. Heck they have a KHD + CoC Profile and they would still see play if their link buddies weren't Bao but CG or KS.
Frenzy needs to go from the game, not just because of the link team exploit, but also because it just adds another thing to keep track of for both players. Recently a guy started Infinity here with MO and he is having hard time keeping track of Frenzy on his units. And I have seen players pretend Frenzy on their models is not a thing when they play against people not familiar with it. Frenzy is usually given to HI anyway, so just make all HI cheaper ( by making ARM or whatever other stat cheaper ) and you get same price discount, without this stupid rule. Another thing that should be cheaper is CC, so make CC cheaper as well and MO and SP won't suffer for losing Frenzy. Problem solved. Other stuff like Liberto should be more expensive anyway, so just remove Frenzy and associated discount from it entirely.
Yes, remove frenzy, and just make it so HI cost less. Because the obvious problem is that the HI designation itself is a problem. And CB seems to know it too, because they keep trying to find ways to game the system with HI profiles.
