For me they just cover too large of an area and minelayer exacerbates the problem by allowing them to be placed in inaccessible locations. Of course we will all be forced to adapt to them, they are in the game and Shasvasti is enjoying a tremendous amount of popularity. I pretty much count on running into them at events and my lists have adapted. That doesn't change my feeling that they are too much in their current state, but that's my opinion. Maybe that's the case about CB and the Jammer. I for one don't see it as the miracle tool some players believe it to be. The Jammer is on a decent platform, but I tend to prefer the BSG profile for actually stopping units, I feel like it has more options with the DTW + BSG. My playstyle with TJC rarely brings more than one Heckler, and it results in having to piece trade poorly relative to costs sometimes, but I can still usually bring an alpha up short. I agree that protecting the DZ with ancillary, cheap troops is problematic for TJC with most of the mission vital units having such a high cost. I tend to leverage the more expensive units multiple wounds and statlines strategically to stop DZ rushes or make them cost too many orders.
@jfunkd I'm gravitating more towards armies that have the mobility to challenge "ZoC threat X on top of a building", which includes Jammers and Dazers. I anticipate using Shock Army and TAK a lot, and both of them have a good unit or two that's fully capable of going after those kinds of threats. Anticipating that kind of danger is also a big factor for me when it comes to picking table side, going first vs going second, etc. I also consider the Jammer to be wildly overestimated, particularly on platforms that do not have Chain Rifles, smoke, etc for added layers of defense. A Jammer on a rooftop can certainly be aggravating, but if a player is lacking the knowledge of game mechanics and list preparation that lets them handle a Jammer, then there are going to be many more units/unit types that give them problems too.
I really agree with @barakiel on this, Tunguska is really as much a Pano style force as a Nomad one. They have Nomad style inforwar, but lack much of the sneaky or scrappy Nomad tactics you find in Corregidor and Bakunin (or vanilla for that matter). I think there are a number of options @Teslarod is forgetting, Tunguska has a number of good area denial options, 1. Heckler Jammer 2. Heckler BSG/eMarat 3. Lunkhold 4. Puppetmaster mine layer 5. Dismounted Zonaut Some standard tools, 6. Ava 2 Transductor 7. Warcor I also think that the 12 point regular ABH with an arkolat kannon is an interesting option. I know I am thinking about it for the Rose City Raid as glue is a good way to stop McMurder from wrecking your AC2. And you need to think about your multitools, in addtion to dedicated tools to stop warband spam, you need to remember that many of your units have options. You don't need a link to snipe out weak models with a spitfire hollowman, and he still has a chaincolt, armor, and wounds to trade hits with most warbands as they close. Tunguska requires an aggresive ARO game in my opinion. Not suicideally so, I do not advocate trying to ARO across the board into your opponents Dzone, but having models like perseus cover shorter lanes that streach into the mid board are necissary to slow any first turn alpha strikes. Leave a TR bot on overwatch in your deployment zone, and as the game progresses repurpose it to an offensive role, the thing has climbing plus, use it. Re: Dazers, Kriza have multiterrain.... But in seriousness they are a problem. But sometimes they can also be an opportunity. Unlike mine, dazers are not in marker state so sometimes you can use them to target things you would otherwise need to discover first with clever use of tools like chain colts, and shotguns.
Looks like we should have a TAG talk at some point, might be a thing or two I can teach for once. Honestly, the Puppetmaster (with or without Puppets) is about the only autopick in TJC. He's a bit like the SAA Sensor Minelayer, replacing the Sensor for the extra Order when going first... Counterintelligence is pretty rad in a Sectorial where your cheapest Orders are Securitate after maxing AVA on cheap REMs. Honestly on paper Kovac is a great dire foe, if she wasn't in TJC where she's redundant and you want something else.
Sounds good, let's talk some time. Kovac has some relevance to this conversation, since WIP14 + BS18 + Sixth Sense L1 + chain colt does provide some options for defense. 21 points isn't exactly the pricepoint I'd have in mind, but she can certainly force some choices for anyone within 8 inches of her. I like that barebones Puppetmaster Minelayer a lot. That's the kind of creative unit design that I'd love to see proliferated to multiple factions (as you say, the Minelayer Sensor is another example of a cheap unit that performs a similarly solid, extremely helpful role.)
Thinking about the puppets... I always have been hesitant to take them as its a 50ish+ point investment, that goes away with 1 wound on a very vulnerable piece. I think I might be willing to take a mine layer, and 1 of the FO bots though... The mine layer has served a large portion of his function at list constuction, layed a good mine, provided counterintelligence. The extra orders and potential mines are certainly value added goals... A single cheap puppet bot is another durable and very disposable body. It also has a high liklihood of killing a speculo etc that suicide into the puppet master turn1, and really thats a trade up in value for Tunguska, losing a puppet and a master for a piece like that. (so much so that it probably would disincentive that sort of attack). I actually really like this idea... it certainly helps to have an extra body with flashpulse, a shotgun, is a specialist, with 2 wounds...
The Jammer was so good because it was on a warband with 15 WIP. Puppets are a really weird new unit, so if there is some hidden potential I wouldn't be surprised if it was in them. edit: do puppets have to be linked?
Well I believe to use puppets correctly some alternative thinking is involved. if you are going to take puppets at all, you aren’t doing so for damage. You are doing it for order superiority. A lot of people talk about how TJC is weak to warbands, and I find it’s because they are trying to fight them in ARO. TJC doesn’t fight warbands on the Opponents turn. It outlasts them. This is where puppets come into play. Puppets are to be taken for battle ravaged. to soak two wounds each and maybe kill a guy or two. But mostly to make them spend 5-6 orders killing them all. They are basically “spend 5 points to reduce your opponents order pool by 1.” You are defending by wasting the opponents orders on jammers and puppets and koalas. Not by trying to kill in aro. I have never had the puppet master killed before. I know a lot of people have, but I believe that’s a deployment issue. They need to be defended and they need to be in the middle of your deployment area. Basically make it so that if they want to kill the master they have to spends an entire turn just to do it. Which is fine. I’ll take a 15 order trade for my 50pt unit any day.
If you take more then one yes, and they all have number 2 so the Troupe always reforms. If they get out of coherency, then the one(s) not in the Troupe are in Disconnected state.
Dang, splitting them would be good. Still, a minelayer master and a single puppet with BSG would be a decent wb defense.
I think this is really meta dependant. Things like indirect fire can kill a puppetmaster with ease, and at a not very high order cost. I think taking a full troupe is a very risky investment, it can pay off, but it also can lose big. Taking a puppet master is so good its probably an auto include, especially the mine layer. After that you are investing more an more into that lone wound. I think that just one bot is still a pretty safe bet, as lots of the tools that would be needed to kill a puppet master early on cost more than the puppet master and a bot is worth, and probably would take at least 3 order to do it. They also frequently provide a valuable utility that a list would lose in such a suicide attack. Whereas taking out a full haris of HI, which are cheaper then they normally would be, due to the frailty of their controller, for a 25-35 point investment and 5-10 orders is a much better option for your opponent. Anyway food for thought.
It's very opponent and table dependent. Units that can Impersonate, infiltrate, in some cases AD can easily knock out ~50ish points in one shot on the PM. The Minelayer won't always save her own life with the mine, but she can make the killing unit pay for it sometimes. Subjectively, in most cases there is a place to put the PM where taking it out is impractical for my opponent, but I have lost full troupes to Jaan Starr and a ridiculously lucky Kuang Shi that made 5 ARM saves on it's way in, by them killing the PM. I wouldn't take two lists to an event where both have a Troupe of Puppetactica. There are some opponents I just don't want to give that opportunity. That said, the puppets are a remarkably versatile fire team and can do quite a bit with zero risk to your order pool and usually do just fine.
I'm sticking with Tunguska all season, so my options are more limited. The Spektr is my only realistic troop for counter-deploying Dazers. So he's been making it into one of my lists for most events. Fortunately I have discovered I really like some of their profiles and they have performed well for me so far.
Sounds like your tables are a lot different than ours. There are always buildings to deploy the master in so speculative fire is never an issue, and getting to the master is incredibly order intensive, especially with lunokhods and the like.
Being in a building doesn't save you. You can spec fire into a building so long as there is an open window or door. Even if its an entirely unrealistic bank shot...
The problem with Jelena as others have said, is mainly just that she makes one of the few close to viable profiles (the sensor Grenzer) in a set of otherwise largely unviable profiles (Grenzers in general) even more redundant. In a vacuum she's fine, maybe even good. She's just boring because she's in a sectorial that already does a lot of her trick (Sensor). Tunguska in general is OK power wise but limited in how they play. I think the fix would be just give Grenzers MSV2 (cue some groans). They'd they'd be expensive and nowhere near as good as Kamau or Haidao - but in a faction with limited smoke and some Nomad tricks that's fine in both directions I think. This would give TJC a pretty good hi tech feeling WB defence, but you pay for it and it's not optimal against other things (since Grenzers are expensive and squishy). Grenzers would become a real, cool choice with upsides and downsides (esp since they would go up in cost a little). Then make Interventors able to go in Securitate links, and the sectorial suddenly has a bunch of different capable builds rather than the more limited ones we see often. And to my mind, wouldn't be at the top of the tree power wise. They'd still just be good, with more good options to explore.
I thought about that kind of thing too. But then all the other profiles are in the same hole they are now. Because Grenzers go in Securitate links I think people are only really going to bring 1-2 anyway. So just making them all MSV2 and letting you pick the one you want (all of which have ups and downs) I think would work better. It would give the game it's first MSV2 ML - but I think that would have it's ups and downs too - devastating against WBs, weaker against a buch of things, like Albedo that can get in its bad rangebands more easily.
