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Dire Foes 9

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Solar, Nov 17, 2019.

  1. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    I think I don't agree with anything in this post, except for one Point:

    I don't think our HI are too strong relative to other factions. Which factions do we overshadow? PanO? Yujing? I doubt it. If yes, I want my BS15-TO-Camo-ARM-5-HI! Haqq? It was said we have the same amount of HI as Haqq has. Is Haqq a HI faction? If not, then, where is the problem?

    I hardly play any HI at all in my Nomads. Much more often I play Intruders and Prowlers. In Corregidor I even prefer Wildcats. If the would overshadow our MI, then I'd assume I'd play them more often, but it's not.

    Here i partly agree: The CJC rework wasn't ... good. I generally don't like mixed Link Teams with one HI with a fat weapon and four squishy Cheerleaders. It's even worse in PanO with the Mixed-Orc-Team.

    But in Corregidor I had great success with Wildcats, so I doubt again that the HI are too strong.

    Which HI Teams do you mean? Riot Grrls and Hollow Men? From my experience again that's not right. I played both of them (not much, like said before I prefer the MI-Skirmisher-Route) but they both felt not particularly strong. The Mixed-Orc-Fireteam feels stronger. Having a Feuerbach hit on 20's is not nice.

    Again, I don't agree. I only hear complaints about Kriza, not about Sogarat. A Full Auto Lvl. 2 Feuerbach seems okay. With ARM 6. Maybe it's because it is more expensive, but that's just because of the additional armor and some Bloat like the Automedkit. Although it could be argued if an Automedkit is Bloat on a PH15-plattform ...

    So no, I don't agree.

    And I think Nomads are the only faction writing that some of their units are too strong, while all other factions only whine how weak they are.
    (edit: Think you'll hear PanO complain that the Kamau Sniper is OP? That it needs a Kriza in active to get even odds against a Kamau in reactive? (Not because Kriza is the best HI, just because he has the right toolset which the Kamau can not circumvent, normally one of the TO-HI (Swiss Guard, HacTao) is IMO better).
     
    #161 Spitfire_TheCat, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Plus Shock Marksman. And I'm against Spiral so tons of them have viral pistols.
     
  3. SpectralOwl

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    PanO has to play against PanO too. The huge number of MSV snipers in cheap links showing up is actually infuriating for a faction that relies on the Swiss Guard and other TO gunfighters to do much of its work, and the Kamau is the worst of the lot. Some Yu Jing players hate Kuang Shi too for the way they warp internal balance. Look hard enough, and you'll see most factions do actually want a fair playing field with strengths and weaknesses for each faction, including theirs.

    Agreed on the Shock issue, less Shock would be nice. And this is coming from a player who uses Bolts almost every game. AP Mines at least really shouldn't be Shock, given even their fluff says they're meant to wound and not kill to slow down enemy medics.
     
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  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Don't forget every REM in the game carries a very accurate shock weapon.


    At least they still need to hit with those so the ODD and smoke your paying for actually means something. it's the 5-6 point WB with a DTW or even worse a REM with a DTW and MML2 that just rolls around the corner and nukes the better part of a fire team leaving the embedded doctor with nothing to do (providing they survived).

    I really hope that program dies in the edition change.
     
  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I like Assisted Fire as a program and a concept, but I do think how widespread Shock is is a problem.

    Just removing Shock from the game or making it + DAM vs models with one (or more?) Wound might work better? Would buff Dogged though. Also might have a beneficial effect on ARM as well: anything that makes DAM more relevant also makes ARM more relevant.
     
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  6. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Is there actually a thread in the PanO Forum demanding to nerf the Kamau sniper?
    Meanwhile, in the Svalarheima thread they are talking about linked Nisse, which would be the same ...

    Even if you find one, it would be regarding one single troop, not regarding a whole troop type (HI) so ...
    The equivalent would be if PanO says "Please nerf our BS15-HI, because they are like One-Man-Link-Teams with their +2 BS over every Nomads HI ... They are too strong."

    I doubt you'll find such a thread ...

    Oh and regarding a fair playing field ... I think it is agreed upon that Varuna is one of the top-tier sectorials, while none of the Nomads sectorials is considered top-tier. Yes, Vanilla Nomads is considered "good", but in Vanilla we don't have Fireteams to complain about. And Vanilla isn't good because of the HI ... So I don't see any reason to nerf Nomads HI.

    (edit: Oh, and someone complained that Nomads have the same amount of HI that Haqq has. Well, that's only right if you count the Iguana Operator as a separate HI. But since I can not take him alone, it's just a TAG Pilot. So no, Nomads has "only" 5 HI, while Haqq has 6 HI-choices (one even with BS 14))

    But ... this is all completely off-topic. So lets hope we get the profiles soon ...
     
    #166 Spitfire_TheCat, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  7. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Other factions might have other things to complain about, and nerfing their advantages is just not a priority. No one should care.
     
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  8. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Since I don't know I understand this correctly: Nerfing Nomads HI is a priority?
     
  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's about making certain units more of a focus for the faction, which has both internal and external balancing, and nerfs and buffs. I don't think anyone thinks Wildcats and Moira and Grenzers shouldn't get better. Also I think Brigada should have more useful profiles.
     
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  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Regarding Moiras, Grenzer und Mobile Brigada I am completely with you. Wildcats ... could use a little buff. Just Bolts-Niveau would be (more than) enough. The times I fielded them they worked pretty well. If they are brought to Bolts-Level (Veteran L1 and/or Bioimmunity) while keeping Multiterrain they would be okay, I think.

    Bolts are good in PanO as well, they just loose against internal competition. Fusiliers are already BS12 and everything else has BS14+. In Nomads BS13 of the Wildcats is already Elite, so it is viable to play them.

    I just don't get the Nomads-HI-Link-Team-Hate...
     
  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's just that a lot of people are finding that (on bakunin and tunguska) their safest bet for most missions is either a dirt cheap link that basically feels like vanilla or using the HI link and it's getting annoying because that style was a faction choice we didn't pick.
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    We haven't really been arguing for nerfing Nomad HI in general (I half-heartedly do for Grrls but that's really just a legacy of a time when they where above the power curve: I'd have preferred Grrls to have become BS12 PH14 rather than seeing game balance rise to meet them).

    I think Hollowmen actually do nail what you want from Nomad HI. They feel distinct and are cool.

    I think that the MB fix works. I think it's lazy design, but it works.

    I think Grrls in Bakunin are actually in a good place right now. They're pretty much on the power curve these days, or just a touch above.

    What I dislike about these Fireteams isn't that they exist, rather their effect on the MI Fireteams.

    MI fireteams should a drawcard for playing Nomad sectorials: right now they're not. Grenzer and Moira Cores may as well not exist given how often they're run. Wildcats, while absolutely playable, are not an optimal way to play CJC (I say this as someone who spent the better part of this year playing Wildcats). I see this as a problem (and yes, that's a completely subjective opinion).

    What I think has been lost in Nomads is the faction focus. I think Kriza show this more than anything else: it's literally a hammer (that makes everything look like a nail) in a faction who's draw was always applying the right tool to the right job.

    I'd prefer to see our faction focusses (hackers, MI and REMs) to be above the power curve and things like HI and TAGs marginally below the power curve. In sectorials, I think this should mean that our strongest most recognisable Fireteams are our MIs. As an example, I think Lizzie nails this: she's worse than a Squallo, however, you can argue that the faction synergies she has access to (excellent FOs / Infowar, Clockmakers and Warbands) builds a better HGL list.

    If this meant a nerf to our HI, I'd be ok with that.
     
    #172 inane.imp, Jan 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  13. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Finally we get to a point I understand. So you say since we are Nomads, we should prefer playing MI instead of LI/HI.
    With this point I can agree. Like I said I prefer MI+Skirmisher over HI.

    But the solution should not be to nerf the HI, but to buff MI (Grenzer and Moira). Because if you just nerf HI (and that's how it sounded above, not from you, I had a hard time identifying your position ...) you have nothing left in the mentioned sectorials. If you nerf Grrls and Hollow Men what do you want to play in Bakunin or Tunguska if you don't want to play the dirt cheap link either?

    These sectionals are not strong right now and would be even weaker afterwards.

    BTW: The choice mentioned above (cheap LI vs. HI) is in other/all factions the same.
     
  14. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    TLDR summary:

    Restricting Nomad linkable HI AVA would be the best answer, and you guys have articulated why very well. Make us play mixed links to do full links with HI, and include some vulnerability in those links, not just ways to make them cheaper.

    That alongside a general MI buff for N4 would accomplish what you're all suggesting. Shock Immunity on MI would be a good easy form of that buff.

    If anyone gets a chance to talk to Gutier and co about this before N4 is set in stone (might be too late for that I guess), that would be nice.
     
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  15. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    No stats btw?
     
  16. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Na, please no more of those mixed Hi-Links with Cheerleader-Filler. These really suck. Someone somewhere proposed that there should be a max to the points difference between the Link members. That sounded promising. No Feuerbach-Orc (42 Points) with a Kamau Wildcard and three 10 Points Fusiliers anymore.

    There has to be a better solution than Mixed LI-HI-Links.
     
  17. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Shock immunity on non NWI/Dogged MI. MK5 and marauders are a big enough pain in the ass as it is.

    I wouldn't mind if the Kriza got the Gwailos treatment in being a sectorial only option (Barely use it anyway), besides one hit like a brick piece that folds pretty easily doesn't really scream faction or game breaking.


    This is probably more to do with the current mission packet as with the exception of 3 (Funmasking, Highly classified, and Counter Measures)they're all just annihilation with extra steps, in which case efficient gunfighters end up being able to solve 90% of your problems and get points for it.
     
  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's a big sticky web between each Nomads faction and between other factions as well to make sure that each sectorial can use different links to specialize for missions or just for fun. Sometimes certain links should be useful for the majority of missions, or the easiest to stick to for players who don't want to buy everything.

    Then you not only need to worry about technical balance between other factions but how they feel to play. For example, a Yu Jing HI fireteam against a Nomad one should have, among other things, superior direct firepower, but should be disadvantaged at, among other things, dealing with their link being hacked.

    Then it all has to still make sense with the unit changes or additions they already have planned to release. For example Wildcats or Moira could already have an N4 overhaul planned for profiles and/or link options, so some dirty solution made here would be pointless.

    Then it has to make sense in the new enviroment that N4 has. If AHD, engineers, and MI are generically more useful in the game for whatever reason, Wildcats could become massively useful with no other changes.

    Everyone has a different idea of what the biggest problem is or what the easiest solution is. The subtext is that we're all bored, have more interest in the game than the access we have to play it, and are pissing away time talking about something we know we don't have the info to actually make decisions on.
     
  19. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I strongly disagree. Highlander Greys in Volunteer links, Cranes in Celestial links, etc. are all plenty flavorful. And Orcs needed a role, which they fill really well in those mixed links.

    HI pointmen are interesting tactically but pretty fragile compared to full HI links. If facing them is difficult, you might need to work on your anti-linkteam tactics in general.

    Stempler in Hollowmen (as a requirement, not an option) in particular would be both flavorful and useful, while adding some fragility to the unit.

    Hollowmen only being available in Haris would also work well.

    For Grrls, either restriction to Haris or mixing them with Moderators or something would work well.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    AVA4 linkable HI.

    > Tsyklons / Wildcats are good options for HI filler in CJC. MB Core with up to 2-3 Wildcats/Tsyklons.

    > Tsyklons probably work for Grrls (but at the risk of buffing them slightly). AVA4 with 1-2 Tysklons.

    > The Hollowmen + Stempler build works for Tunguska. Just limit it to AVA4.

    In all cases it'd emphasise the integration of REMs into the Nomad war-machine.

    ----

    I don't actually mind the Fusi + Orc Fireteams. Make that a feature of how PanO runs assault teams and balance around it.

    Also Orcs in the same Fireteam as Kamaus do offer up another attack vector (although Oblivion is annoyingly shit on active).
     
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