Imagine this: Raoul Spector is Engaged with an enemy Karakuri, declares a CC Attack and wins the FtF roll (reminder: E/M CCW has N+E/M damage). How many saves does Karakuri have to roll and what will be the effects of those rolls? How many STR points will Karakuri lose if it fails all saves?
I would say 1 save E/M CC weapon use the amo : N + E/M*. It cause 2 save because one hit cause a ARM roll while the other cause a BTS roll. Total immunity change E/M ammo into Normal so the karakuri will only receive one it with Normal + Normal ammo. Other situation with 2 ammo causing ARM roll cause only one roll (example : shock + AP), so the karakuti will roll only once and take only 1 damage
This has nothing to do with other situations where 2 ARM rolls are caused, since E/M causes a BTS roll. TI doesn't change the type of save you are rolling, it merely allows you to replace the attribute you're rolling it with. UPD: Also, the type of ammunition of the attack doesn't change. A troop with TI only ignores the special effects of the ammunition (halving the save, rolling 2 saves instead of one etc).
The target treats it as Normal, as per Total Immunity, and as such is affected by two attacks that both target ARM which means they combine.
The 'treating it as Normal' only applies to special effects of the ammunition, as per example: A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with E/M Special Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll, ignoring the special effects of this ammunition (that is, halving the BTS value).The type of save (ARM/BTS) you are required to roll is not changed.
I don't mean to be rude, but "citation required" that the type of save doesn't change. The basic meaning of "treat as" does not agree with your interpretation. When the target is afflicted with the E/M CCW hit, the normal way they treat this is to take the effect of E/M and additionally make an ARM roll from the Normal hit. When a target with Total Immunity is hit they will treat it as if receiving a hit by Normal with an additional hit by Normal which when following the rules for combining damage means they treat the hit as just a single Normal that they additionally can choose whether to roll ARM or BTS versus.
It's one normal save with Total immu .. same case as for DA+AP ..will only make one save I think you didn't own that karakuri ^^
A similar question was asked a long time ago about Breaker + Shock and Bioinmunity (saving the Shock as bts to roll one save) and it was ruled that it was two saves regardless. So I would say you roll 2 saves.
This is because Bioimmune models are not immune to Breaker ammo, so it becomes a Normal + Breaker hit and you can not combine Normal and Breaker because they target different stats. The ruling was that the choice of what save to take it on was inconsequential (because combining ammo types would happen prior to making that choice)
http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Weapon http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Immunity An E/M CCW has TWO ammos. N+E/M. N => Roll against ARM or BTS. Failing this is one wound E/M => Roll against ARM or BTS. Failing this is one wound Otherwise you could not use Total Immunity and roll as standard. If you prefer to risk isolation in place of another wound.
Basically, @tox has already provided the answer, but I just wanted to note that I have quoted the example from TI rules specifically to provide a proof of this. UPD: Actually, I think the burden of proof should be yours, @Mahtamori, as it was you who claimed that TI changes the save type in the first place. This doesn't seem to be supported by the rules and the example I quoted.
Except you forgot half the quote. You quoted : A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with E/M Special Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll, ignoring the special effects of this ammunition (that is, halving the BTS value). But forgot (emphasis mine, @tox highlighted it) : If the roll is failed, then the trooper will lose 1 Wounds point, as for receiving a successful Attack with Normal Ammunition. However, if the trooper has a high ARM value, they can make an ARM Roll instead of BTS, without halving the ARM value, and not applying the special effects of the ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition. So if my karakuri is it by an E/M CC weapon, I will choose N => to take the normal ammo as normal ammo E/M => to treat the E/M ammo as normal ammo So I'm hit by a N+N ammo, choose an ARM roll for both kind of ammo => same situation as AP+shock on a standard trooper => 1 roll/1 damage The only situation that cause a weapon with 2 ammo to cause 2 roll is when one ammo cause ARM and one cause BTS. Here, both ammo cause whatever I want. So unless I choose to take the first N on ARM and the second on BTS (which I technically could, if I somehow wanted to die), it will be only one roll
It follows that Breaker + Shock also still causes 2 rolls against ARM or BTS (in what-ever combination) because: A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with BREAKER Special Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll, ignoring the special effects of this ammunition (that is, halving the BTS value). If the roll is failed, then the trooper will lose 1 Wounds point, as for receiving a successful Attack with Normal Ammunition. However, if the trooper has a high ARM value, they can make an ARM Roll instead of BTS, without halving the ARM value, and not applying the special effects of the ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition. And as, @Mahtamori , points out what matters is what stats (ARM or BTS) 'targets' not what stat it is resolved against.
@Arkhos94, I think you are highlighting only part of the rule. It should be "and not applying the special effects of the ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition". For me it looks like @Mahtamori is advocating for the opposite -- that both attacks target the same save attribute and thus can be combined into one save roll. I am really confused at this point.
This is also the case in Breaker + Shock vs Bio-immune, where you'd choose to be Breaker + (Normal vs BTS). It doesn't matter what you want, what matters is what is caused. There's basically a semi-secret order of operations (from Total Immunity): 1. Determine whether ARM or BTS are affected "A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with E/M Special Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll"2. Apply Immunities to 'not apply the special effects of ammo' "ignoring the special effects of this ammunition (that is, halving the BTS value). If the roll is failed, then the trooper will lose 1 Wounds point, as for receiving a successful Attack with Normal Ammunition."3. If permitted, assign rolls vs ARM or BTS "However, if the trooper has a high ARM value, they can make an ARM Roll instead of BTS, without halving the ARM value, and not applying the special effects of the ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition." So for the Bio-immune case: 1. Determine whether ARM or BTS are affected "A trooper with Bio Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with Breaker + Shock Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll and 1 ARM Roll"2. Apply Immunities to 'not apply the special effects of ammo' "ignoring the specials effects of Shock ammunition (that is, straight to dead). If a roll is failed, then the trooper will lose 1 Wounds point, as for receiving a successful Attack with Normal Ammunition."3. If permitted, assign rolls vs ARM or BTS "However, if the trooper has a high BTS value, they can make BTS Roll instead of ARM, without applying the special effects of the Shock ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition." And to actually answer the question (EM CCW): 1. "A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack with EM + Normal Ammunition will make 1 BTS Roll and 1 ARM Roll" 2. "ignoring the special effects of this ammunition (that is, halving the BTS value). If [a] roll is failed, then the trooper will lose 1 Wounds point [for each failure], as for receiving a successful Attack with Normal Ammunition." 3. "However, if the trooper has a high ARM value, they can make an ARM Roll instead of BTS, without halving the ARM value, and not applying the special effects of the ammo, treating it as Normal Ammunition [or vice versa in the case of a high BTS value]."
He's, incorrectly, arguing that the 'EM' becomes Normal and therefore causes an ARM roll that you can choose to resolve on BTS. The Example makes it clear that EM hits still causes a BTS roll that you can choose to resolve on ARM.* He, correctly, points out that what matters is what roll is caused not what roll is resolved. Aside: Spoiler For the record, I thoroughly dislike this distinction between what roll is caused and what roll is resolved. But that's what we get from the Breaker+Shock vs Bio interpretation, so let's make it universal. My preference would be the roll that is resolved is the roll that is caused. Not least because while the rules arguably make this logical distinction, they don't make it linguistically: one makes the BTS roll by making an ARM roll instead. * In @Mahtamori's defence, the example does not describe a plain English interpretation of "treating them as Normal Ammunition".
Well, to this I fully agree. Spoiler: Aside I myself dislike the whole idea of a hit with practically harmless E/M ammunition being converted into a hit with harmful Normal ammunition that causes actual damage. It is counterintuitive and adds another brick into a thick wall of exceptions, special cases and weird rules interactions in Infinity. As if we needed any more
This is not consistent with the rules, however. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Types_of_Special_Ammunition "Certain Special Skills, such as Dual Wield, allow the user to combine the effects of two or more types of Special Ammunition. In either case, when the combined effects involve the same Attribute (ARM, for example), apply both in the same Roll." So if the E/M portion of the damage still targets BTS, then they can not be combined. Also consider the FAQ for AP + Shock ammo versus Bioimmunity and how it makes the Shock ammo disappear because of the combination. Taking one to BTS and one to ARM isn't even a choice: N3 Frequently Asked Question FAQ Version: 1.1 Q: Against an AP+Shock shot, how does Bioimmunity work if you choose to make the Armor Roll with the BTS Attribute? A: The Shock Ammunition would treated like Normal Ammunition, but is combined with AP Ammunition so it is compulsory to make the Roll with the ARM Attribute, not with the BTS. Related Pages: Bioimmunity, Shock Special Ammunition, Types of Special Ammunition I don't really get what the problem is regarding the Karakuri "treating" the ammo as Normal. It means that the ammo behaves as Normal ammo behaves against the Karakuri (and that this will not be transferred to the Keisotsu that was also hit by the same missile) - and, trick question, how do two normal ammo ammunition in the same attack combine? It shouldn't be harder than opening Merriam Webster up and doing a quick search.
I guess Bioimmunity doesn't allow to replace ARM with BTS in the AP+Shock example because it doesn't apply to AP ammo, so the logic of that ruling was probably something like "if you cannot apply the Bioimmunity effect of choosing ARM/BTS to all ammunition types in the attack that involves multiple ammunition types, then you cannot choose at all". In the AP+Shock vs Bioimmunity case it only applies to some of the ammunition, so you don't get to choose to roll ARM or BTS and apply the default rules. Total Immunity, however, ignores the special effects of all ammunition that causes an ARM or BTS roll. I'd say that if we apply my little theory to this case, it stands.
No, if Shock didn't get annihilated, you'd have a choice between AP effect only or AP effect and BTS roll, but you don't get a choice at all. Also, no, this is not true. Even though you're asking the question, you're sufficiently vested in it that you've stopped asking and you're positing your own idea. As such it is equally on you to supply what proof you have that your idea of how things are is valid. As such, what rule do you lean on that says that a unit which treats ammo as a different type do not also combine said ammo as if it was that different type?
