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Coordinated Order and ARO baiting with Camo

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Tongfa, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    If I have 2 tankhunter missile launchers in camo and a grunt in a coordinated order against a wildcard kamua linkteam with only one visible member (all 3 have eyes on) is the kamua obligated to shoot at the grunt?*

    What if the grunt (shotgun and heavy flamethrower) is out of range of the target. Can the grunt 'move-idle' while the camoed tankhunters 'move-fire'?

    Thanks.

    Edit: or delay against all and shoot a camo token (thanks Sabin)
     
    #1 Tongfa, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    1. In short, no. The Kamau can choose to delay his ARO against one of the camo markers instead. If even one of them is in the ZoC of the Kamau, he can choose to delay against all of them* provided he is in a 4+ linkteam.

    2. Not exactly. You would declare Move+BS Attack, but the Grunt would end up doing nothing (idle) because you would measure him to be out of range. Note that this means you cannot choose to not attack with one of the tankhunters (like the one the Kamau delayed against) if they have vision. Everyone in the Coordinated Order must declare the same skills in the order.

    (*I'm only 95.3% sure about this)
     
  3. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    Also unsure, though I have different understanding for point 1.

    My thoughts are that this is not dissimilar to baiting a White Noise ARO with a Dakini link (leaving the HMG in the white noise zone whilst the unlikely combi Dakini is left out of the zone and takes the hit).

    Point 2 seems right to me - though only 85% sure.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I agree with both of your interpretation, in particular in support of of Sixth Sense, since it does not at any time specify that the target has to be the trooper in Zone of Control nor that the ARO has to be taken against a trooper in Zone of Control, only that you can wait until after the second Short Skill declaration when you have one active enemy inside Zone of Control
     
  5. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    It's hard to communicate my tone over text - so please don't take this in a challenging manner.

    The bit I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is how the example in the first post is different from a White Noise ARO Dakini bait (OSS) which is accepted as a valid loophole of sixth sense level 2.

    If what we've reached so far is the case - then the kamau could simply 'delay and shoot the dakini HMG through white noise due to sixth sense level 2' - which is apparently not the case. Again - this is like a ridiculous number of rules 'working' (in the most generous sense) together - so this is really the source of my confusion.

    As it stands, at present - I'm not sure how the tankhunter or the dakini example differ in execution and results (other than a command token use).

    quote above from https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/vanilla-or-oss-against-varuna.35204/
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The difference is that Sixth Sense L1 only works in Zone of Control (8"). That Tacbot is shooting from 16"+ which means the bait is highly unlikely to be close enough to allow the Kamau to use Sixth Sense.

    This is not a unique trick against Kamau, it works against anything as long as you have a Zero Visibility Zone that you can see through that your target can not and something you can sacrifice to generate a bad ARO. E.g. a Hsien in a Haris with a MadTrap Zhanying standing in smoke can use the Zhanying's MadTrap to bait an ARO against an Avatar to further decrease the odds of taking an EXP hit to the face.
    The difference is that against Sixth Sense trooper, it only works outside of ZoC.
     
  7. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    Noted - thanks. No disputing how Sixth Level 1 works.

    However, the tank hunter missile launchers can also be assumed to be outside of 16" - doesn't that put them in the same example as the tac bot?

    To make the scenario even clearer; a metro & 2 camoed tank hunters want to coordinate fire the kamau. All shoot from outside of 16", the tankhunters with their rockets and the metro with his rifle. What options are available to the kamua?
     
  8. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    Kamau can only declare ARO against metro --> Kamau can only shoot* at metro. Coordinated order on camos is somewhat broken**. Even better on Antipode assault pack because you don't have to use an cmd-token to do these tricks.

    * Or any other illegal or legal ARO such as Engage.

    ** Not really, because sixth sense level 2 is too good protection as it is. It gives an effective 360 LoF against non-coordinated orders, ignores any level of surprise shot (expect perhaps smoke special ammunition) and ZVZs.
     
    #8 Tanan, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The difference with the Tank Hunter is that the Tank Hunter is in Camouflaged state. Camouflage, TO Camouflage, Impersonation-1, Impersonation-2 and Holoecho states all allow your opponent to delay their ARO until after your second short skill - however, there are differences to how this delay works versus Sixth Sense. Unlike Sixth Sense delay, you need to specify the Trooper you are delaying against and unlike Sixth Sense you are also severely limited in the responses you can give when delaying should your opponent keep walking.

    So the two different delays in examples:

    Inside ZoC (Sixth Sense)
    Kamau estimates that one of the enemies, be it the Metro or be it one of the Tank Hunters, is within their ZoC and says that they are delaying ARO for now using Sixth Sense. Mark the closest trooper's closest location so far for verification and declare your second Short Skill.
    a) You declare Move again.
    -> Kamau can Discover one of the Tankhunters (any Tankhunter) or BS Attack versus the Metro
    b) You declare BS Attack against the Kamau.
    -> Kamau can declare BS Attack versus any of the three or Dodge to FTF all incoming attacks.
    c) As with any of the above, but when measuring ZoC during Measurements step you find that none of the Ariadnan troopers have ever entered the Kamau's ZoC - he estimated wrong!
    -> Kamau's declaration turns to Idle, regardless of what it was. Had the Kamau used a Disposable weapon (e.g. Sniffer or Panzerfaust), it would've lost the declared amount of ammunition as well for no effect.

    Outside ZoC
    Kamau estimates that, obviously, everyone is a bit far out of range and answers that they will delay giving their ARO until after that camouflage marker (pointing at one of the Tankhunter's Markers) has acted.
    a) You declare Move again.
    -> Kamau loses their ARO because they can only declare a delay ARO against a revealed trooper using this rule
    b) You declare BS Attack
    -> Kamau can declare BS Attack against the previously indicated Tankhunter or they can Dodge for an ARO against all attacks.
     
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  10. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    "asking for a friend" - but how would it work with an antipode pack - they're irregular so my understanding is that they wouldn't fly with this busted ass mess of a rules interaction.

    Thanks - and agree.

    Also, another argument for rifles > shotguns/flamethrowers. You get to pull this ARO bait nonsense from longer ranges.

    Edit - no longer agree - think Mahtamori's got it right. Better get used to losing a tank hunter now - tho now I no longer have to take metros.
     
  11. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    This reads like a f*cking legal argument - but I can see where you're coming from.

    If I'm understanding - the difference is how sixth sense treats Non-vis zones (white noise, smoke, albedo) vs Camo.

    Bottom line - the kamau gets to shoot a tankhunter coming out of camo state, but is forced to eat another tankhunter missile if doing so (no split burst ARO yet thank god).
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Antipodes work kind of like Fireteams in this respect. You can coordinate them with other Irregular troopers such as a Monstertrucker, but one of the Antipodes have to be the Spearhead due to the Antipode rule and each Antipode counts as one trooper for the maximum of 4 coordinated troopers.

    It's all Sixth Sense' fault, tbh. It's one of the game's strongest, most common and by far the least well written rule.

    Yup, a lot of people still swear by Coordinated Orders for taking care of Kamau, but they often argue for using multiple cheaper units like a bunch of Line Kazak snipers, Authorized Bounty Hunter snipers, some cheap Panzerfausts, and the likes. If you're lucky enough to have an Albedo or access to White Noise, however, you can outrange Sixth Sense and out-sacrifice regular ARO declaration.
     
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  13. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    agreed. It should not be this complex to figure out what happens when more than one person wants to shoot rockets at someone.
     
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  14. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori we are talking about this sentence, right?
    • Bear in mind that when reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH: TO Camouflage Marker, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill.

    So your argument is that any trooper can react to any camo marker in the entire gameboard, regardless of range of LoF?
    My argument is that you need LoF to make a reaction (ARO) unless otherwise specified.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is not my argument, nor is it actually part of the conversation.

    Arguably, in order to delay an ARO you need to have gained an ARO. Whether that's from LOF or ZoC makes no difference.
     
  16. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

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    So in this case, the Kamau gets an ARO against metro, not against Tankhunters. Metro isn't camouflaged, so Kamau can't delay ARO. Even if Kamau player somehow could declare delay, it still wouldn't do anything because delay isn't in fact an ARO. Failing to declare ARO against Metro triggers this faq:

    --> Kamau loses the ability to declare ARO against Tankhunters.

    Basically, we have two problems:
    1) If delay is allowed even without LoF --> Camouflaged-status is a hinderance compared to non-camouflage. Ninjas must reveal themselves before doing coordinated orders. So much intuitive.
    2) If delay isn't an ARO, coordinated order with non-camo and camo is very strong because the target is forced to ARO against non-camo.

    I have have tried to solve this issue by playing delay as an ARO. That way you can delay against camo-marker in situation 2) and coordinated camo-markers don't have to first reveal themselves if they manage to flank a sixth sense model.
     
    #16 Tanan, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
  17. Tongfa

    Tongfa ULTRA INSTINCT UKR

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    JUST WHEN I THINK IM OUT THEY PULL ME BACK IN

    Which is it CB? When will the truths and untruths end? What is real and what is NOT real??????
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    The difference is whether all the active troopers are in LoF/ZoC or not.

    With White Noise, the Dakini is neither in LoF nor in ZoC, so the Kamau has no possible ARO against the Dakini.

    With Coordinated Camo/non-Camo, we're talking about a situation where all active troopers are triggering AROs.
     
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  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Tanan is getting mixed up. An ARO needs to have been triggered (for example by the active trooper being in LoF or ZoC) before you can 'delay' an ARO against them.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You are conflating two different topics. The Auxbot does not have Camouflage, the Celestial Guard does not have Sixth Sense and the Celestial Guard has not gained an ARO against the Auxilia in the first skill declaration. There is nothing for the Celestial Guard to delay and no rule the Celestial Guard can use to delay with.

    In the example of a the Tankhunters, whom are in Camouflaged State, the Kamau have LOF to the Camouflage Marker and thus has an ARO (which can be Discover or Dodge against a Camouflage Marker) and can thus delay their declaration against one of the Tankhunters - because they have an ARO to delay and two of three targets are in a state where you can delay against them.
     
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