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Lieutenant and FairPlay

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Arkaon1125, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, fake, lying for advantage. It's outside the rules. It's like telling your opponent his kid's been in an accident.
     
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    But "using the rulebook" to invalidate a model's abilit(ies) is totally ok though?
     
  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, using the rulebook is usually how one follows the rules. The idea that you can't access the rulebook when playing the game is absurd.
     
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  4. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    So noted.

    So if the lists of units was divorced from the rulebook, then it would no longer be "ok"?
     
  5. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    It entirely is. If it’s not normal practice in every deployment, then asking the opponent to turn around always reveals the presence of HD etc.
     
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  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    How is it lying if you say, "Please turn around, as I might have some hidden deployment"?
     
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  7. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    As many folks have noted many times over the thread, it’s all a matter of when and how you’re using the tools at your disposal. Are you using up gameplay time trying to reconstruct my list? Yes? OK, if it’s a friendly game I’m going to chivvy you along and if it becomes a habit, I’ll be less inclined to play with you. If it’s a tourney, I’m going to call over a ref/umpire/judge and get a ruling and clear expectations set, which I’ll then abide by and expect you to as well. Not using up gameplay time (i.e. checking during my deployment)? Then more power to you. And if it’s a game with a new player, I’ve already accepted that we’re likely only getting two rounds since we’re figuring things out together.
     
  8. DeltaDrop

    DeltaDrop Member

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    I've played bluffing games before. This is how bluffing is done, you keep the possibility open. I'll be quick with the turn around. I know where I'll place the guys before hand so nobody needs be around for long and if I place nobody then I'll still be quick.

    If you prefer to play with open information about our lists I'll save time on the reconstruction and just tell you what you could conclude. I will expect you to do the same. Its not my favorit way to play, but it is a way to play.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem is that since the fact that troopers' points costs are described as hidden information is expressed clumsily in the rules means that TO's can (and have) enforced this selectively to punish players who beat their friends too hard.
     
  10. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Taking a photo to hidden deploy isn't in the rules, it's a homebrew shortcut for player convenience, so there isn't really an answer for the rules legality of its implications. At least you should make it clear that nothing might be placed.

    The actual rules create a whole new opportunity for cheating, as it's very hard to verify that the unit was actually positioned during deployment and not some over time.

    The discussion is around a fake request. By definition it's lying.

     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If it's written down during deployment and let aside in a folded sheet of paper until then, then it's pretty easy to verify.
     
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  12. SpectralOwl

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    This is also basically mandatory for running Paratroopers too, since you can't really shortcut the board edge selection with photographs. I believe for full integrity you can get the TO to come over and verify HD/ Paratrooper selection when you make it, but nobody I know of around here is that paranoid about their opponents cheating.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yeah I always do it in competitive play, especially with USARF where I can have 10 camo markers + a paratrooper, but people are generally pretty cool about it. Still, I want to always have it on hand in case someone gets confused as to what's what or wants verification.
     
  14. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    This really is not the same thing.
    Asking to turn around or scrabbling nonsense is giving a sense of uncertainity to the oponent. And I am all for it.
    If I can estaminate that about 30 pts is missing and my oponent is NOT writing anything, or not asking me to turn aroud, this gives me much more info, as I have much higher chance now to face an AD unit.
    Besides. Solely asking to turn around automatically gives me knowledge that enemy has such thing in his army in general, so in the same time he gives me something I didn't have to know. And now I know without checking Army or book.
     
  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It's more : my opponent : "do you need me to look away when you take a picture ?", Me : "what picture ? *big smile" (even when I have no TO ; I always take pictures of the table at the start of the game and edit them during deployement).

    I don't say anything, i just stay mysterious (like I do when my opponent count my camo marker and realize I have more than 10 camo marker/visible trooper in a group).

    Don't need lying, just look mysterious and smile

    The rules says "write down". I'm pretty sure putting a cross on a picture qualify as "write", even if its done on an electronic device

    Marker without hidden deployement are easier : I have a number under each camo token and write the number next to the corresponding unit (with M for mine and A for ambush camo) on my list.
     
    #175 Arkhos94, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
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  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Keeping track of Private Information, game states, Lts, Markers etc is definitely a bit lax on the official ITS side.
    It's up to the TO to figure out how he wants to handle it and as a judge I prefer to threaten drastic measures at the begining of the tournament.

    Even if people think it's a hazzle, forcing them to do it makes things easier for everyone, prevents forgetting stuff and discourages cheating.
    Most people will get along and won't even ask for confirmation on TO positions and I for one take care to remind people not to do that.
    Vaccinating the entire 40+ players against cheating will prevent a lot of bad blood.
    The 2 guys that are going to argue about half an inch that decides if the TO ARO can see something or not will make it all worth it.
    It'll also avoid tempting the guy bringing in his Parachutist AD turn 3 into adjusting the truth a little to win the game.
    As well as obvious stuff like running 2 identical lists with different Lts (and then claiming to use A or B as it suits the player each game).

    For every thing you'll get called to a table for, another 5 people got away with pulling off something that's going to amount to full blown cheating.
    I'm not saying a judge should breathe down the player's necks all tournament, but a clear cut no tolerance policy about cheating up front is a good way to start.
    Our TO always hands out Private Information sheets for each round that list the basic things like which list was used, which physical model is the Lt (in case you run multiples of the same Profile, like Fusiliers), Classifieds, AD1/2, HD etc. If those aren't filled in with all relevant a judge is going to rule against you - at least if you are a staple player, we have a good idea who is a noob and who of the usual suspects needs a bit of extra attention as incentive to stay on track.
    Proxy use also requires a mapping sheet for your opponent so he can tell what is what. Mandatory courtesy lists are something else that unfortunately needs to be enforced despite ITS being quite clear on that.

    Personally I don't mind people attempting to recreate their opponent's list. Looking for the Lt is the first thing my head does on default and I don't need the app for that. Only fair if someone new can jog his memory a bit with Army6. As long as he is using his time - we will definitely start his chess clock - if he can't be arsed to do it during his opponent's deployment. Attempting to predict what the other guy is running is a natural part of the game, no reason to punish people who can't do the math in their heads.

    I'd personally like a more hands on approach for ITS. A template for Private Information sheets to print out or keep track off with the App would be great. Overall the game runs smoother the less you can screw up by being lazy, forgetful or on purpose. Can't avoid the occasional rule blunder anyway, might as well lock down the areas you can to keep the focus on playing the game instead of managing it.
     
    #176 Teslarod, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    As in, "please turn around or run and get a beverage, as I might have Hidden Deployment to futz with."

    Problem solved.


    That's why we take pictures. Much harder to sneak an inch or two when there's a picture of where the model is!



    Not when you include the word 'might', it's not.



    Eh, easier to verify with a picture, IMO.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The problem with pictures is someone could take multiples and only show their opponent the one they want to use.
     
  19. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I add the TO to facebook and send him the pictures I take. You can even add extra text to better explain how it’s exactly positioned and if the trooper is prone, etc. It’s time stamped proof.
     
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  20. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    And I say again, at some point don't we just remember that we are playing with toys soldiers and there to have fun? The Infinity group is hands down the best group of gamers I have ever been around. I have never once been worried that somebody was making up their AD, TO or switching camo. And I haven't really been questioned that much in mine.
    My opinion is, If my opponent needs to win so badly that he is willing to cheat, then he can have this one.
     
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