My friend and I both began playing Infinity a few months ago, and we have had the opportunity to play against each other a few times every month. We started with 100 point games and slowly worked our way up to 300 points, due to both of us feeling more comfortable with the rules. My friend beat me in one (maybe 2?) of the lower point games, but has struggled to beat me in a single 300 point game. He has gotten quite close in points, but his play tends to fall apart after the first or second turn. I have suggested going back to smaller point games, which he doesn’t seem keen on. Is there anything I can do to help him pull of a meaningful victory without “letting” him win? He seems to know when I’m taking it too easy on him. I am playing Haqqislam and have most units. He has PanO.* *as I am new to the forums and the game, please let me know if I should have posted this in the PanO section. Thank you all!
Hes oldGreg! He drinks Baileys from a shoe! But for the topic at hand... In small points games Stats are more important than list synergy. With PanO's better BS its not surprising he won. As you get higher points and more options and strategies become available it falls more on the player than the army list. At 300 points, if you know how to leverage your strengths and the opponent does not leverage theirs, they will lose. That is something that he needs to learn. How does he better leverage his available forces for the mission at hand. Lower point games will not help that, only experience and studying the units and what they do will. Most first forays into Infinity the Game usually involve being beaten into the ground repeatedly. It has a learning cliff you have to climb that is most assuredly a tough climb, but once you get to the top of it, it becomes very rewarding. Definitely discuss strategy as you go, if he is doing something that obviously gives him a disadvantage, point it out, and explain his options. If your winning with Haqqislam I would assume you have a good grasp on strategy and tactics as they are not an easy match up against Pano with little experience. So be sure to discuss things out with your opponent. If he is not open to changing his playstyle then there is only so much you can do.
I appreciate the reply, @theGricks! Thank you. It is nice to get some reinforcement for the way we've been handling it. We typically have a pretty in-depth discussion after each match and try to figure out what went wrong and how. To be honest, it has been a fun exercise to try and put myself in his shoes. Do you think it would be helpful for him if I ran the same list a few a few times in a row?
i agreed with @theGricks , Haqq is a faction that you need synergy, and 100-200pts lists are hard to do it. I think that running the same list a few times is good for you and for your friend, he learns more about your units and how to deal with them AND you can learn new tricks that your list could use. Another thing you could do is try things that you never used, try some things that you don't know how it works or maybe units that you don't feel confortable. This is a "light" Handcap, you're not trying to go easy on him, but don't know how to use effectively your tools yet.
@HardDisk that sounds like it could be fun. I have been using a different list nearly every game, as I have been getting new models and been excited to play them. With that in mind, what do you think of a list like this: Helping a New Player ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 FASID HMG + (Smoke and Normal) Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53) ÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39) TARIK MANSURI Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 55) LASIQ Viral Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 25) LASIQ Viral Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25) HAFZA Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31) FARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23) GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) NAJJARUN Engineer Rifle + Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army I don't usually run all the big stuff or Lasiqs, but do you think it would be good practice for both of us? I have a lot of the Haqq line, so I am open to any suggestions :)
Ok, coming from a PanOceanian perspective... 1: How many orders is he running? (putting too many "big hitters" on the table with too little support is a common PanO problem) 2: Are you using ITS missions or "point and kill"? 3: What's falling apart? Is it that you are simply pulling off strings of kills or are the wheels coming off in some other way? Some idea of what he's running will help here too... if you can remember.
What PanO army is he playing ? Are you playing vanilla Haqq or sectorial ? Could you give a list he likes to use ?
Is this fairly typical of what you've been running? Because if it is then I can suggest a few things which are likely to be causing the issues... 'though I am still curious exactly how things are going wrong.
First off, I really appreciate all of you giving advise. Here’s the list that my buddy is running: PanOceania──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 1 FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 37) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) FATHER-KNIGHT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 46) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33) 6.5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army The lists I’m running typically look like this: Haqqislam ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 SALADIN Lieutenant Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 36) DJANBAZAN HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35) BARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) TARIK MANSURI Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 55) FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31) FARZAN (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) GHULAM Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16) NAJJARUN Engineer Rifle + Light Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) SHIHAB REMOTE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) HUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) GROUP 2 4 4 MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 4.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Edit: We realize Joan isn't the best Lt for this list. The major issues he has been running into have to do with positioning. He leaves models out to ARO, and then I kill them. Sometimes it seems to just be luck on both of our parts, but other times he just walks straight into a trap I've set. A couple times, Joan has been left out to ARO, which we both realize is not ideal. The other thing to note is that these are most of the models he has available - but we proxy some and it hasn't seemed like an issue.
Part of the fun in Infinity is list buliding. While All-Comers lists are extremely fun, and rewarding when successful; the truth of the matter is that in ITS, a list designed to deal with the mission at hand, usually does far better that an All-Comers. Giving us a bit more info on what missions (or game system: ITS, YAMS, 20x20) you're playing, will help a lot in pinpointing better advice. Another thing is Miniatute Availability. When people are starting, and have a limited supply of minis, I always reccomend proxying profiles, or even other Units with useful rules for the mission. Some units have better synergy than others and it helps to know what resources are available to him. Edit: Ack! Ninjaed by the lists!!! *Doh!*
Sorry, I forgot to add that we have been playing ITS. Mostly Capture and Protect, Quadrant Control, Looting and Sabotaging, and Acquisition. We've played others, but keep coming back to those due to limited availability on his end. That is the core list he's been using for a few games, and some of the units are proxied... I have a list of what I believe his inventory to be in reality. The TAG has not been built or used yet. @AdmiralJCJF what were some of those issues you were seeing? I would love to know? @Danger Rose I agree 100% that list building is super fun and play around with different variations all the time. I tend not to use a tailored list against this friend due to his limited availability - he chooses the mission when we get to the store. [Usually].
Hm... playing vanilla PanO requires some really strong "beatstick". It's not a surprise to me that he keeps having problems against your lists. Basicly Ghazi alone will probably eat through his ARO pieces (unless his sniper gets lucky), and none of the units on PanO side wants to eat the E/Mitter, Chain, Jammer in a face. All those HI are "decent" but not exactly great, but none of them is a real "beatstick" "fire superiority" unit. Basicly his list need some strong assault piece to murderize your guys, be it Guarda, TAG, Swiss Guard. MO troopers which he seems to have quite a few are not that great, Teutons Spitfire is "only" BS14 spitfire (in PanO not that great thing) which is hackable/jammable. Swiss guard can hide under marker and bypass Ghazi who runned out of position and shoot them and other things to death quite reliably (hello 4 shots on possibly 18s ^^). Also single Magister Knight ML is not that great as it's not an reliable ARO piece (due to him jumping down, rushing forward as soon as the turn starts). Obviously I don't know about other miniatures he has but mayby he should try to proxy a bit (at least at start) and play something like that: PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 1 FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49) TEUTONIC KNIGHT Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 37) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) FATHER-KNIGHT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 46) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) GUARDA DE ASSALTO MULTI Rifle + Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges + AUXBOT_2 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 49) AUXBOT_2 Light Shotgun + Eclipse Light Grenade Launcher / Electric Pulse. (- | 6) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32) 6.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Additionally Buletter Spitfire supported by Engineer and Fusilier Hacker (for Marksmanship, so shock ammo and ignoring cover) is very cheap and quite fast/nice assault piece which should be able to effectively remove many Haqq chaff units.
@eciu I know for a fact he wants some REMs, and he's been looking at different units to proxy. I'll pass this along to hime and see if he wants to try it out. Thanks for the suggestions!
Hm... so he has some models, how about this list: PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 27) NISSE HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34) FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18) AKAL COMMANDO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 28) CROC MAN (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army There is really strong fire superiority piece of dragao, some support for it (engi + fusi HD), 2 TO camo guys to clear path for it, specialist AD trooper to solve unexpected problems, and Joan with her Inspiring Leadership allows to even have "10" orders to spend on dragao on turn 1 even if Akali is not yet on table (obviously both TO are present as at least markers). This lists proxies "a bit" but I hope it should be managable, as most "biggest" units are true and only a bit of secondary/auxiliary units are proxed (engi, Warcor, Techbee). Obviously if your friend has Joan he should really invest in buying Warcor (its really good/important buy) and Techbee.
And by Bulleteer I obviously ment Bulleteer Spitifre, not that Heavy Shotgun is bad, but Spitfire with Marksmanship and ODD is really brutal thing capable of eating drowes of LI.
As of right now, he's been sticking to vanilla, but I have been playing around with Vanilla and the sectorials [including a small dip into DBS]. I happen to have a Warcor he can use, and I'm sure it won't be too difficult to proxy a Techbee until he gets one. I'm getting excited to play against a list like the ones you've posted. I think the variation will help my game, as well as his.
Ok, firstoff thanks for giving us a bit more info @oldGregg . It's clear that one of the key issues going on here is the classic "New to PanO" disease. Too many top tier choices competing for too few orders. My first comment is that's a competitive Haqq list going up against a bit of a joke on the PanO side, I'm not sure any PanO player is going to be able to put up much of a fight against that level of competitive list design in those missions with the options your mate has put on the table. So that's a compliment to your quick development, but it's probably hurting your opponent. Mutts and Fiday are both tough for PanO players to learn to play against, but are both important things for a new PanO player to learn to defeat so I don't actually think you're doing your opponent any favours by ditching the former. Nevertheless it's going to require some tactical development and list tweaking. Firstoff, your opponent probably needs to look at their ARO options. I'm going to take a stab in the dark and assume your opponent has learned the "ARO lessons" and is leaving only the Missile Launcher and (Hidden Deployed) Multi-Sniper "up" as defensive pieces in the first turn. But then he's running into problems because you overwhelm these with burst fire (or the Fiday) and then simply drive 'through his line with the Mutts? The thing which is missing, which is going to cause all kinds of pain 'till it gets sorted, is short range ARO defense of the "deployment line". This requires Direct Template Weapons... which in PanOceania means Heavy Flamethrowers (usually on AuxBots) and Nanopulsers. These need to be positioned so that units attempting to move into the deployment area get hit 100% of the time (which requires at least 4 of them). Other angles can then be covered with units carrying Combi or Multi Rifles to give additional short range ARO support without exposing them to long range fire. There are four key units which I personally consider essential to strong Vanilla PanOceania play which your opponent is missing. 1: Auxilia Forward Observer These are cheap specialists which also bring a DTW in the form of a Heavy Flamethrower. They can cheerlead AND cover the base line as well as offering mission backup. 2: Acontecimento Regular Minelayer/Sensor Once again, a relatively cheap "cheerleader" option with utility. While not a specialist the Sensor can help defend against Camo threats and the mine is a nearly unique tool which helps to protect the deployment zone against alpha strikes. 3: DroneBots Basically all of them except the Clipper, but ESPECIALLY a pair of Fugazi and a Pathfinder (the latter is one of the best specialists in the faction and the former an essential cheerleader which can be taken as a pair) as well as a Sierra to help control your Warbands. I'd highly encourage your mate to look at a couple of boxes of these, they are one of the best investments any PanOceanian player can make. 4: Trauma Doc + Machinist Once again relatively cheap options with support potential, but this time they can also bring along their PalBot buddies who can help in all kinds of ways (and give you an option to go with the Hospitaller Knight Doctor which you will soon put onto the table). As you've already noticed a WarCor and Tech Bee are basically must have's if you are going to run Joan... but they are golden options generally too. And I'd be cutting the Father Knight, Teuton, Magister and plain Hospitaller ('though this can simply be upgraded to a Doctor and made instantly 1000% better) and replacing them with the cheaper options I've suggested above and maybe a Spitfire Bulleteer (remotes man, PanOceania NEEDS them) and a Nisse HMG (or maybe sniper, but that's less essential).
As to that, he has gotten a lot better about eliminating these threats, but is now doing so in a way that leaves him exposed to my units like Tarik. Your advice on deployment line ARO pieces would likely be exactly what he's looking for. He does, however, tend to leave more units exposed than he probably should, which allows me to eliminate threats with high burst during my active turn. The sniper has been a killer against me every time we play, which has been fun to try and work around. I think using his strength with that in combination with all the other suggestions you all have given, I may soon have something to truly fear. Does anyone have more thoughts on the Dragao? He hasn't built it yet, due to a busy schedule, but I know he really loves the model and wants to crush me with it.
@oldGregg welcome mate - you are in very safe hands here. The Infinity community is definitely the most positive and supportive that I have experienced in any game - and especially the Haqq crew!! Oi oi! Even if you are a passive member, there is a wealth of knowledge and support here so feed off it and know that you are part of it. ‘We typically have a pretty in-depth discussion after each match and try to figure out what went wrong and how. To be honest, it has been a fun exercise to try and put myself in his shoes.’ Personally, I’ve only been in the game for a year now, but this is one of my favourite things of this game. Discussing tactics and ‘what went wrong’ or the possibilities of a given action in a game are so intriguing and exciting. The dynamics of infinty mean that it can turn on a sixpence - something will always go wrong and you have to adapt and change your plans on the fly. Me and my mates love the post game as much as the actual action, and it’s such an important part of the game as a ‘noob’ growing into the learning curve. I feel I can relate to your story as I had a similar experience, but trust me - he will find a way to distrupt you and suddenly you will be on a losing streak. But what’s the coolest thing is that you will learn to play differently and try new things and learn from the experience. I’ve never played a game so rewarding and exciting between friends so good luck to you and welcome aboard!
100% agree. And thank you for the kind words! I'm really looking forward to playing Infinity as much as time and the rest of my busy schedule allow. On that note, I just heard there's to be a global narrative campaign? Is there a Haqq Crew that is a part of this? [I might need to search for/start a new thread for that question].
