Yan Huo in IA

One look at the O-12's gamma unit should be enough to tell you that the Yan Huo is paying way too much for what he gets to work with. It's unfortunate for such a pretty model, but it's never managed to impress me.

 

I'm always in the same position. I want to run this guy so bad, but everytime I end up taking the Mowang because he is way more polyvalent with his use of the Lt orders, his extra resilience and his weapon loadout, for the same cost or even cheaper.
So for the moment my Yan Huo is a proxied Mowang, but I feel sad when I tell my opponent that the HRMC is "just" a multi-rifle...

 

I've playtested the haris option quite intensively, usually with a haidao KHD wildcard, and it's okay but not really efficient. If you really want a beefy 3-man team most of the time you're better off with the Tac Aw zuyong HMG or Taï Sheng MK12 to milk those bonus orders and stay mobile without dragging a 4-2 S5 big lad around.

Now the HRMC and Neuro DML aren't that bad, but the competition with the mowang and hac tao is really, really harsh. Just to illustrate, I have a tournament in 10 days and am considering the following lists for safe area + capture and protect:

Spoiler: 2 Yan-Huos

Great Wall Open Field
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
YĀN HUǑ Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
YĀN HUǑ 2 Missile Launchers + TinBot C (Neurocinetics) / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 56)
HÚLÁNG (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 44)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

6 SWC | 299 Points

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or

Spoiler: Hac Tao ML + Mowang

Great Wall Open Field
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

10
DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
MÓWÁNG (NCO) Spitfire, Flammenspeer / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
HAC TAO Missile Launcher, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 65)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)

6 SWC | 300 Points

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I kinda like the first list, but it's really hard to convince me the second one isn't just vastly superior for all intent and purpose.

 

I went up against an IA with a Yan Huo and a Mowang and it was pretty brutal! Below is all that I remember. But the YH was in a Haris. A burst 5 Multi-HMG is terrifying! It was frontline and at some point the YH moved away from the rest of the Haris but the others did their job.

Invincible Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

4
MÓWÁNG (NCO) Spitfire, Flammenspeer / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 54)
YĀN HUǑ (FTO) MULTI HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53)
ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)

4.5 SWC | 154 Points

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If you want a good defensive team. A haris of YH, Zuyong, and Haidao Sniper could be pretty good.

 

Why would you waste all those points to get the Multi HMG to burst 5 when you could just take the (still way overpriced) HRMC in the first place? Is it really worth paying 47 points for that one extra explosive shot in ARO?

 

Maybe because he was taking the other things anyway and needed the points? I don't know but it was effective against me. Also, in a mission that required you moving up, a haris is more efficient for it.

 

If theres anything Tohaa taught us its that comparing a unit designed with another edition in mind with a unit from the current edition is never a great path to sanity. The Yan Huo compares pretty well to most other S5 HI in the game and even vs. the Gamma packs a solid helping of hitting power over all.

 

I admit, I really like the YH in vanilla YJ. HRMC for the win, sawing the tops off of buildings and stuff.

I haven't found a way I like to stick a YH into a 300pt IA list, since I usually run a Limited Insertion list with ~8x HI. 400, sure, but not 300.

 

I play bith, the solo HMRC and the Haris Hmg. The main differnce between both is that the solo allows ypu to pick another big shooter (usually a mowang combined with leutinent 2 and Zhansi core). If you go for the haris you should take an account of the other two dudes and uae them, go agressive and move out of deploy zone. If not, the haris is just an overcosted Yan Huo.

And regarding to Yan Huos in general I think that they are cheap for what they bring, mostly pure firepower againt all models excepts for the TO/ODD. You won't carry your game on the first round with a Yan Huo alone, it is to slowly and week on reactive (that why the haris may work) . But Yan Huos are great for cleaning ARO and deny zones, then you have to go with the zenchas or other support tools.

Give them a try and you will see, but don't think about them like you will do with a Du Jian or a Hac Tao/Hsien

Regards

 

I think a Harris with the missile launcher could be strong. Burst 3 missiles is nuts.

 

It's good, just a big opportunity cost. I need to try it to see how it does but I find it difficult to build a list I'm happy with. Anyone got anything that's worked well so far?

 

Here's a bit of sad math.

Take a Gamma. Remove one point of ARM (I estimate maybe 4 points). Remove Full-Auto L1 (I estimate about 3 points). Improve the HMG to MULTI (I estimate about 5 points). What do you have?

 

An extra wound for about +3 points, that cannot be healed back? Seems about right.

I am curious about the ML Haris, since I have already been running a Tai+Haris+HaiDao KHD in my offensive lists. Looks like I would build either link depending if I want to move up or bombard from far.

Still leaves room for a Mowang:
Invincible Army──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1 10 YĀN HUǑ (FTO) 2 Missile Launchers / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 52)
ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
MÓWÁNG (NCO) Red Fury, Akrylat-Kanone / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 52)
HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

 

An extra wound on a platform like the Yan Huo is worth more then three points. Otherwise, he wouldn't be so costly in the first place. It also comes with V:Courage, which is a big deal for the defensive loadouts.

 

True, but I want him to be offensive, the defense duty is for the HaiDao. And when he drops, a medic can patch him up.
In general, leaving a 50+ piece as ARO is not a sound ideia unless it is round 3 and you are done. I want to leverage the active burst with him!

The V:Courage is a good argument thou.

 

My point was that the points cost on the Yan Huo doesn't make sense, it's missing something and that something is really expensive. The same is true when comparing to the Kriza, it's simply not possible to reverse engineer the Yan Huo to either Gamma or Kriza or even Az'rail without having roughly 10 points unaccounted for (unless a HMG->MHMG upgrade is 15 points and AP HMG->MHMG is 10 points).

@Willen NWI can be healed up, as far as Doctor is concerned it's just another Unconscious state. It not only gives you Courage, but it also allows you to roll a Guts Roll when going to your last wound, which can be used to duck out of LOF with the Guts Roll if you're in a position where that's not possible with only going Prone.

 

From a quick comparison between the Squalo and Seraph that actually seems to be accurate, assuming +1 PHY and ARM at a very high value balances out the Seraph's slew of cheap add-ons and CC.

 

Comment from IJW suggested the Multi on HMG to be 5 where it is 4 for other weapons, but if it is true that it actually is +15 points over a regular HMG then that's absolutely insane! Kriza is paying only 10 points to get Full Auto 2 and Gamma is paying an unknown amount for Full Auto 1 (my guess is 3 to 5 points) and Full Auto 1 is better than Heavy MULTI on an HMG.

Might just have to re-evaluate the model to simply be dumb than weirdly over-priced and under-performing.

 

There are more than a few oddities with how things are costed in the game. I took a look at a bunch of units a while ago and there are skills which clearly have a negative cost despite being upgrades. With that in mind it is plausible that the 4-2 move is actually being costed.

I'm also pretty sure I remember the cost of a Multi-HMG being approx 9-10 points more than a standard HMG but I'd have to check my notes. Essentially Heavy Multi has a different cost to Medium Multi (which is not an unreasonable assumption given that it has different rules but I think it is overcosted still).