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TO downgrade to regular Camo

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Theronth, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Look how limited camouflage dont have that text and yet you can be in the camouflaged state (it is a lettered skill, so you dont have camouflage by default), the state dont need the skill, except to enter the state using a long order, the other part allows being deployed in the state. (limited camouflage only allows you to deploy in the state)

    Also mines dont have camouflage skill and yet they are in the state.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    so then we can ignore one part of a rule because other rule doesn't have it, but the 3rd rule should not ignore the equivalent part because ...? instead of accepting a ruling in the forum, shouldn't we ask for clarification from CB of which of the 2 are ok? because there is a contradiction there, and that ruling goes against a FAQ. The more I see it, is more a forced tweak to gain an extra advantage (having 2 habilities with NFB active at once)
     
  3. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    As it was discussed before, our understanding of NFB skills was like you said, but the FAQ i quoted from Sept 2018 changed it. States are not dependant of skills.

    You use the camouflage skill when entering the camouflaged state, after that, you dont need the skill to keep the state, so you then use the TO camouflage skill, turning camouflage off as it is optional.

    Also as this interaction has not been directly addressed by CB it is just a guideline, not a final ruling, your TO/opponent might need convincing and this thread is just giving arguments for a consensus, tomorrow might come a FAQ that makes all this wrong, and that is what FAQs are for.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Believe me, I'm having a hard time finding the "exploit" that was "solved" by rendering the Camo state completely independent of the skill once activated. I'd much rather have the skill and state linked like Cybermask and allow one to voluntarily cancel the state by "turning off" the skill. I think it would be easier to understand and teach if it were that way.

    Unfortunately, this is a direct consequence of the FAQ and sometimes (many times?) FAQ rulings have a way of introducing unintended consequences. We'll just have to wait and see.
     
    emperorsaistone likes this.
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    but that FAQ says nothing about habilities and states beign the same or different things, talks about cancellations, which is a different topic. And then we also have the FAQ about cybermask and ODD. And in this second FAQ, using the same logic as with the first one, states that ability and state is the same, because you are in the state while using the ability (which is btw the most logical an intuitive thing to think), and then is the same as should be appyed with camo state and camouflage. If status markers and abilities are different things, then the cybermask FAQ is against it, and if that FAQ is correct, then the "interpretation" of ability and marker beign different is wrong. We have clearly a contradiction here

    Another point, the "spoit" is trying to have all benefits of the ability in ha "gotcha" moment, not much more, ok, but it is clearly against the use of NFB because is trying to get the advantage of 2 habilities with it at the same time. It has nothing to do with the voluntary cancelation (and if you are positioned, you can just declare a discover at the enemy to discover your trooper, maybe he is using holo1...)
     
  6. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    One exploit i can think of is hidden deployment, wich you could turn off and get a regular order at the begining of your turn.

    Also, having states and skills linked makes them less flexible.
     
  7. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Cybermask is a different case, because it's supportware, wich need to be sustained to be used.

    infinitythewiki.com/en/Cybermask

    Each Hacker can only sustain one active Supportware program at a time.

    But it was already stated on this conversation and we are now talking in circles.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    From memory, the exploits were based around:
    Cancelling marker state so that enemy troopers couldn't hold their AROs, but the trooper still got Surprise Shot because they started the Order in marker state,
    Being able to cancel marker states 'for free' to be able to hold objectives that have to be controlled by a model instead of a marker.

    To be blunt, you appear to have misread the FAQs. The two FAQs work completely differently to each other, because the underlying abilities work differently.

    The second FAQ separates the Skill and the State, by saying that turning off an Optional Skill does not cancel the State, so the State is no longer dependant on the Skill. And as mentioned up-thread, if you are going to try and link the State to the Skill, troopers with Limited Camouflage will automatically cancel their Camouflaged state.

    Cybermask is explicitly different, as it has to be constantly running to actively maintain the State. As has been pointed out multiple times...


    Edited for typos...
     
    #68 ijw, Oct 2, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    That and the fact that it made SHIELD-Programs 100% Irrelevant, especially with Breakwater from HD+ and EVO-HD.
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    "Can you choose to cancel game states that are the result of an optional Skill? For example Camouflaged state or an IMP state.
    A: No, unless the cancellation bullet points for the game state say that you can cancel the state voluntarily"

    Yes, you cannot, is obvious and we all agree here. But from here someone is creating a ruling that affects other rules: "Skill and state are different things" which is a forced tweak from an "answer", not an errata. Trying to apply that to more situations that it seems it was intended. Ignoring a bullet from the rule, creating a "gotcha moment" that works against another FAQ.

    yes, the way cybermask works is different, different from that interpretation because is ignoring a part of the other rule. Making a ruling from an unrelated FAQ and use that ruling to state that different skillis work different is a bit off
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Nobody is 'creating' a ruling. It's the direct logical implication of the FAQ.

    The reason why the FAQ was added is that players were claiming that the State was directly dependant on the Skill, and that choosing not to use the Skill (the only bit with NFB) would therefore turn off the State.

    Also, "creating a "gotcha moment" that works against another FAQ" is a fabrication. Nothing is working against the Cybermask FAQ.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Woulnd't logic force you to spend an order to do so? After all, considering the RAW wording, I think I can legally declare Discover with my camo marker... against himself. It's a Move order, after all, and it has no limit regarding the target (logical, since not being able to Discover against "friendlies" would prevent you from Discover Impersonators XD).
     
  13. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the cybermask FAQ tryes to explain that you cannot have 2 skills with NFB at once, just choose one or the other, but not both. That goes with the rule, is logical, explain how is done and affects the related skills targeted by that FAQ. The "interpretation" of the other one is making 2 skills with NFB working at the same time because a fabrication of "skill and marker are not the same", something that is not related with that FAQ
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    LoF is from one Silhouette to another Silhouette:

    The Line of Fire (LoF) is an imaginary straight line that joins any point of the volume of a model or Marker to any point of the volume of another.

    So no, a trooper can't declare a Discover against himself.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    We're going to have to agree to disagree, because you're not reading what people are writing in the thread. Only one Skill is working. :-(
     
  16. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    Try reading it the other way around:

    I deploy in camouflaged state, using camouflage.

    Ok

    Hey, camouflage Is optional, can i turn it off?

    Sure

    Does it cancel my camouflaged state?

    Nope, per the faq.

    Can i use this other NFB skill?

    Sure, you are not using any NFB skill.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Very well, let's change the order I use to decloack. I declare a Jump or Climb "of no consequence" (a single milimeter, in the jump's case, or a move & back in the case of climb). If I have no enemies able to see my Silhouette before the 1mm jump, no enemy can draw conclusive LoF during it (because the surface square required is smaller). Both are Long Movement Orders, and thus fulfill a Cancellation Clause for the state.


    Does this break the plug said FAQ intended to be?
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    @xagroth if nobody can see it's a non-issue anyway. This was about not needing to spend any Orders.
     
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  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    People is saying that a TO trooper can, while in normal camo state, aply the -3 from surprise shot and the -6 from TO. That's 2 skills with NFB at the same time, and is what I tryed to clarify.

    Another point. If is the state which needs the NFB label, then patroclo doesn't need his holoproyector level 3, because anyone could maintain his holoechos and ODD at the same time
     
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  20. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    The absense of the nfb trait on the skill helps him on the Edge case he tries to enter holoecho state, and a HD Trooper shoots at him, allowing him to use the holoprojector lv3 and mimetism or ODD in the same order.
     
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