Dahshat heavy. I don't find the regular one to be too bad. AVA1, no Mimetism, 1 SWC, Limited Camo is about right. It's still an incredibly cheap unit for its cost, perhaps too cheap, but I don't really view 4-5 points as something I'd panic about. It's mostly the combination of AVA2 and Mimetism that I dislike. @bladerunner_35 I mostly just see them Dodge to Cover if they get caught by too many modifiers. Very rarely do I see them shoot in ARO, unless it's close-range with a shotgun or chain colt. They mostly just eat up quite a few Orders until they're dead.
It’s not about them being hard to kill or bruteforced. My grievance with them is the fact that they are too cheap for the out they bring, similar to the issue that people have with Posthumans and similarly, they also warp internal balance to the point where people will look at you funny if you ain’t bringing them.
@barakiel Makes sense. I just wanted to be sure I wasn't going crazy :) Depends alot on your meta though too. I know locally I'm one of the only people that brings the Libertos out. Because...I dont know? We're not competitive enough or something?
I think there are a lot of factors. Some people don't have the minis and want to play WYIWYG. Some players don't care much about cheap, irregular chaff. But I definitely agree that they tend to soak up a lot of points, relative to their low cost. It's hyperbole too of course. Sometimes a simple Discover + Shoot knocks them out. But I personally have bad luck against them, and since Dahshat's already a very powerful Sectorial, they're one more nasty competitive tool that Dahshat can use against me. I think we discussed this in another thread, but I think Hunzakut + Libertos are the best part of Dahshat, and not Tac Awareness Zuyong + Rui Shi. Zuyong + Rui Shi is definitely good, but Dahshat's midfield game is brutal.
Because Spehs Poolice can't work with terrorists. Sarcasm font does exist, even if it is a pain to hand-code Code: [font=Comic Sans MS]Sarcasm font does exist, even if it is a pain to hand-code[/font] Sure, because Haqq is already overflowing with cheap points-trade pieces. One more, even a really good one, just isn't going to be noticed.
Ummmm ... Sure dude. I believe the Liberto has been tried and tested in Haqq. It gets taken sometimes, but usually not. I run one as a personal role play for Old Greg because it makes me laugh, but the unit has never really felt OP. It adds more to some factions than others. Rather than ... I'd refute that because I believe Vanilla Haqqislam would often rather spend the points and SWC elsewhere. So the unit has been noticed. And is now often passed up for better options.
I love the model and the fluff, but I wish more thought had gone into what it does to the internal balance of the factions its available in (most of them). The version that Dashat gets seems like an attempt at how far they can push cheap camo before it breaks. Obviously opinions vary on the outcome, but I'm not a fan. They should probably just ditch minelayer, and perhaps shave it off a few factions.
You also outlined some potential flaws in your opinion and highlighted some general assumptions/experiences leading to it. I cant say I saw the post leading to this call out here but your post here wasnt just "Fuck these things I hate them" It was generally reasonable series of opinions and the reasoning behind them.
@Hecaton Priced at 1 SWC, CB seems aware that the Liberto needs something to counterbalance that cheap cost. At least that cost is there... I'd hate to imagine this unit at .5 SWC. I also think it's nice that Vanilla factions get access to a cheap Minelayer. I think that's a nice defensive buffer, if a Vanilla army wants to get access to it. Getting something that's cheap in points but expensive in SWC is also an interesting mechanic, from a listbuilding approach. Reflecting on this discussion, I think it's primarily the Mimetism and multiple AVA that I find tactically difficult. @TheRedZealot Thanks for the opinion. I think you're correct.
I don't recall, since I'm not really a Vanilla player. But I don't think that's really the point, since it costs 1 SWC now?
Like I said, there's already a lot of cheap harrassers that are easy to points-trade up in Haqq. A Liberto would have to be grossly, game-winningly broken to really stand out as OP compared to Haqq's existing lineup of cheap shenanigans. Instead you get a reaction more like, "eh, I can use a Hunzakut (or whatever) just as easily. *shrug*"
It's closer to comparison to an over charged Harcase than a Naga, and fill a similar role when comes to disposable missile for dealing things like defensive fireteams, TR bots, and the like. the standard Helot is less egregious than the Dashyat version, but there some blatant issues it has when it comes to abusing the points formula, that primarily being FD2 instead of Infiltration (though this means it going to cost an extra order to reach it's target) and hyper dynamics instead of phys, realistically they should sit in the mid teens range when it comes to points. As it has been pointed out it's viability heavily depends on faction, those that already have a bucket load options or are inherently tight on SWC are probably less likely to take it, and the same can be said of play style is you aren't a fan of soft/asymmetric defence and prefer more direct defensive/offensive pieces you may not take it. Full disclosure, the Helot does end up in two thirds of my vanilla lists for a couple of reasons: 1, it opens up a zero slot as it no longer needs to be the minelayer and can be the AHD or FO. 2, the Helot (like the Hardcase) is one of the best options for dealing with the Kamau's friends or the extra bots backing up a Dakini sniper, if it gets there. Give it a few points of Phys, drop a level of Hyper-Dynamics and Dogged, it'd still be strong but not oppressive. Pretty sure that was an army bug. IIRC it also doesn't work for vanilla PanO.
So was the post he responded to in the quote IMHO. On a subject he's not exactly laconic about. But let's not worry too much about consistency. On topic, I think it's no secret certain profiles are like faction bonuses and virtual auto picks. It's not my favourite design philosphy, but its not exactly breaking the game either. Sectorials, and Sectorials other than Dahshat seem to do ok still (eg the inter final was OSS vs VIRD). So I think the complaint here is, if not untrue, at least a little hyperbolic. 2x Liberto with Mimetism in Dahshat certainly seems pretty good. Better than Post Humans? I dunno. Sky isnt falling.
Maybe I just don't play enough but (base) liberto just seem good. They add quite a bit to certain vanilla (like yu jing) and I'd say the 1SWC is a pretty decent tax for that minelayer. Maybe hyperdynamics is a little too nice for helping burn orders., but the rest of the package isn't particularly oppressive. I'd agree with Barakiel that AVA 2 + mimetism is where the bridge too far is probably located. It immediately shores up one of the few weaknesses Dashat should have (in my opinion) kept - weak defense. I feel we've been here before. The krakot was considered super amazing OMG too good as well, and as the meta aged like a fine wine they've reverted back to a solid pick that players may or may not bring in the bag. Theres a new shiny effect which can take a while to wear off in infinity as people's lists morph so rapidly.
