So, this is just a rule interaction I was thinking about and wondering if it works as I concluded. So, Mines cannot be placed with a camo marker inside their trigger area (except for when declaring Intuitive attack). However and naturally, Troopers in Hidden Deployment do not count for this as they are not on the table for any purpose other than sniffers. Is it possible then, to have a unit declare he places a Mine as his first skill of an order, and the opposing player declares idle with a trooper in HD inside the Mine's trigger area, thus turning the HD trooper into a marker, thus rendering the placenent of the mine an illegal move and stops the mine from being placed? Of course, the odds of this happening in a game are miniscule, but not impossible, but I'm really more curious about the rule interaction itself.
As written, since the restriction is on performing the skill and not declaring it, all I can conclude is that yes, provided another enemy is not also in the Trigger Area, the mine can not be placed and the mine is expended (lost). Though, I'd leave a bit of room for doubt, I don't quite fully understand what conditions have to be met in order to be allowed to cancel HD state but not Camo state other than delaying. Idle isn't an ARO-capable skill and any other ARO declaration will cancel both states.
I agree with @Mahtamori here; I see a lot of people coming up with methods to use AROs to turn their HD models into TO markers at the very end of the opponent's turn so that they get regular orders on their own, and I'm really not convinced that it's legal.
Idle is not a valid ARO (it doesn't have the ARO label). Nor is move. So : Step A : foxtrot declare "posing a mine". If he was camo it reveal him Step B : HD marker reveal itself by declaring an ARO Is there any ARO that can be declared by the HD trooper that won't reveal him ? 1) If yes, then I agree with the 2 previous post. 2) If no, then the HD troop will reveal itself when AROing so mine landing will be a legal skill once you reach the resolution step : there will be a legal targer in the mine trigger area then I can't find an ARO that don't reveal whoever use it. Can someone find one ?
First answer: the HD troop appears on the table after you declare you place the mine. That's its ARO, that marker cannot wait for your second short order to do anything! The other option would be for the HD troop to show up by shooting at the troop that is placing a mine, thus not preventing the mine to be placed anyway, or by dodging to get out of the way. Second answer: Well, usually you will Move first (I hope CB FAQs this soon, a lot of problems would solve themselves if the short order Move were to be declared always first...), also I find a shame the Trigger Area definition does not exclude the "shadow" of your troops, but if you declare to place the mine first... Anyway: Spoiler: Mines from wiki MINES SHORT SKILL / ARO Attack REQUIREMENTS In the Reactive Turn, LoF to the Active trooper is required. EFFECTS By spending a Short Skill or ARO, the user places a Camouflage Marker (CAMO) on the game table to represent the camouflaged Mine. This action is an Attack. In the Active Turn, the trooper can deploy the Camouflage Marker in base contact or, if he moved, in base contact with any part of his route. In the Reactive Turn, the trooper must deploy the Camouflage Marker in base contact. Mines or Camouflage Markers are not considered deployed until the Conclusion of the Order. Replace the Camouflage Marker with a Mine Marker (MINE) when it is Discovered by an enemy. Mine Markers retain the beneficial MODs provided by the CH: Mimetism Special Skill (BS'''-3). Mines have a 360˚ LoF arc. Mines ignore all Visibility Conditions. Once on the game table, Mines must trigger when an enemy figure or Marker declares or executes an Order or ARO inside their Trigger Area. As a Direct Template Weapon, when a Mine triggers it places a Small Teardrop Template with Damage 13 and Shock Special Ammunition. The Small Teardrop Template must be placed so that it affects the enemy figure or Marker that triggered the Mine. A Mine never triggers if the Small Teardrop Template also affects an ally, even if that ally is Unconscious. Impersonation Markers (IMP-1 and IMP-2) do not trigger enemy Mines. Once a Mine triggers, it is removed from play. REMEMBER A Mine cannot be placed if there is an enemy Camouflage or TO Marker inside its Trigger Area. This rule does not apply if there is a valid, non-camouflaged enemy inside the Trigger Area, or if the Mine is deployed as an Intuitive Attack. This is the sequence of things that happen: I declare "I place a mine" You declare "a Hidden Deployment troop shows up here, still in marker state" I declare "Move", and place the mine in any position of my movement B2B to my troop. If your marker is now outside of the Trigger Zone... sucess. If not, I lose one use of mines and do not place the mine. I can also consider a fair trade to lose the mine and declare Discover on your marker, since you cannot ARO again... Resolution: if your marker is inside of the Trigger Zone, I lose the mine without placing it. If I managed to place so the marker is outside... Please consider that a case could be held on "you have to declare where you place the mine in the same order as you declare you will place a mine". And remember Impersonation markers do not block the placing of mines (nor do they detonate them).
this is the answer. Essentially the question is a non-issue. Idle is not a valid ARO skill and therefore cannot be used to drop HD but maintain Camo marker state. The only way to do that would be to hold your ARO Vs an opposing marker, however that obviously is not the case when the trooper is placing a mine.
Pg 72 core rulebook: Pg 246 of the core rulebook gives the list of orders classified by type. Idle is a Short Movement Skill, but... Core Rulebook pg 30, ARO definition, Warning red box: Taking this into account, I fail to find any ARO-valid order that allows the HD troop to remain as a camo marker, BUT FOR declaring "I will hold my ARO" against another Camo marker. Edit: @daboarder was faster than I XD
Step 1 is not legal. You need to declare an order or an ARO to cancel HD or to be discovered through sensor. Edit : you were faster than me Which cannot be done if the active troop first order was "place a mine" as it reveal him
From http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged Since Alert does not require a roll, but is listed as an exception, I'd say declaring Alert is the order/ARO that, without requiring a roll, reveals a camo marker into a troop when said marker declares Alert. Mind you, I'm not 100% sure, which is why I didn't mentioned this before.
Alert isn't "a Short Movment Skill that does not require a Roll", so logically it can only be an exception to 'a Skill'. It is, however, badly written even by CB's standards.
It's clearly written in the rules as an exeption and logical from a fluff point of view : shouting "there is someone there" or "Alert" has a high tendancy to reveal your hidding place, I would say it's not so bad
Arkhos, but an exception to what? It CAN'T be an exception to 'Cautious Movement or Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll' (something can't be an exception to a group it does not belong to) so it MUST be an exception to 'a Skill'. In which case it doesn't break camo.
I thought there was an old forum topic where CB confirmed that this was a hold-over in language from N2, and that alert will reveal it. I can't link it because my work blocks the old forum.
Yeah, the "except alert" is a weird holdover from old editions as Alert isn't a Short Movement Skill any more. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...-reveal-camouflaged-state-etc/#comment-685106
