It doesn't? Then why would they be able to respond with a dodge? And what about the very first bullet point of template weapons, which literally states that anyone under the temolate is affected? "Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment." And from smoke examples this extract: "The third Fusilier does not have LoF to the Shaolin but, being affected by the Area of Effect, he can react with a Dodge in ARO. He declares Dodge so that, if he passes his Roll, he can move outside the Template. In this situation, the Fusilier must make a Normal PH-3 Roll to Dodge."
No, it does so as an addition to other rules. It doesn't preclude other rules from also coming into effect.
You're going to have to start quoting rules. Where does it say a Smoke weapon prevents normal Face to Face rules from working?
So, wait... Tossing smoke on an MSV2 trooper results in a F2F (not because of the special dodge, but because of the template being an attack)? But wasn't there a ruling that smoke was not an attack so that you could throw it on your own troops or HVTs?
There is literally an example right there in the smoke ammo section that tells you an AROing trooper is allowed to Dodge because they are affected by a template attack. The reason is that it's a template weapon which makes things go all weird. But, keep in mind, Nimbus Grenades are weirder, yet still more clear cut. Those are explicitly attacks, but without a direct adverse effect and more importantly without Special Dodge.
Yes, the Fusi without LoF can dodge, but it's explicitly not a F2F. My contention is that the MSV2 troop AROing with BS attack can be F2F'd with a smoke as long as it lands on the MSV trooper (but not if it only blocks LoF). Edit: it's also possible I'm misunderstanding your arguments... it was my impression that you were saying a hacker getting smoke thrown on them would get F2F'd by the smoke thrower because they are affected by the template. I was saying that if that's true, then an MSV2 trooper would also be F2F'd under the same conditions.
No, you're understanding me perfectly. And yes, MSV2 only ignore smoke ammo's Dodge effect during the order the 'nade is tossed, that's it for MSV2's effects as far as the smoke tosser is concerned.
Im a little lost in your reasoning. The "special dodge" is only ever active in the order it's tossed, so that would be the only time MSV could ignore the effect. I'm not sure why you brought it up. But what you're saying (I think) is the smoke roll and BS ARO from the MSV trooper are normal unless the template actually lands on the MSV trooper, in which case it's a F2F. That the part I don't really like, though I can't articulate with rules why that's a problem ATM.
Again again again, yes that's what I'm writing. If it touches the MSV2 trooper you are affecting the MSV2 trooper and you are satisfying the requirements for the core mechanic that separates this game from others, and it becomes a simple face to face roll. I bring special dodge up because I am stating what MSV2 does. It seems most people haven't actually read and considered what is actually written in the rule, instead they do the shorthand "ignores smoke" which isn't actually true.
What a perfectly clear and fine rule, everything as clear as a day! Reminds me of Literature classes during my school years where we had to guess 'what the author had in their mind'.
To me it is more along the lines of those exam jokes. The teacher writes information at top of exam in normal sized letters "Before you write anything, read the last exam question." which then reads "Remain quiet during the exam, write your name on the paper and nothing else. After 5 to 10 minutes you are allowed to turn in the exam, say 'this was easy' and leave the room" Basically, you're given information first, which then gets... forgotten. That said, let's hope they clear up smoke ammo in N4, because the whole attack-that-isn't-an-attack and the use of Dodge is just plain confusing.
On a side note, I'm not sure that the text in the blurb about how "actions must affect each other's outcome" in order to make F2F roll is actually helping. If you try to go just by that, you'll naturally start wondering about possibility of pieces to independently take wounds from each other :P Sure, that one is covered in other rules, but if you're looking for rule of thumb, you'd probably look elsewhere. My own one is this: if troopers attempt changing each other's state during a single Order while using Skills that require a Roll each, or if one of these Skills call for F2F directly in its description (ex.: Reset, so-called "Smoke Dodge"...), then it's F2F. By "changing state" I mean changing current stat values in profiles (including Wounds), applying States (capitalized, ex. Targeted) and whatnot. I think that kind of covers that?
Sure, but that is a house rule. It's fine to be playing with house rules, if you feel it makes the game better, but that's not what we were discussing.
Eh, it's not a house rule, it's just a mnemonic trick. It's not supposed to supplant actual rules, but to help applying them faster early on. Currently I can't think of actual rules you will break while following this rule of thumb, though, but maybe there is something, in which case I should just correct this construction of mine.
As I've detailed above. Smoke directly affecting the target and Nimbus directly affecting the target. Also consider that a Veteran is immune to the effects of Isolation, but will still Face to Face against an E/M Grenade, just like how McMurrogh will still face to face against a Flash Pulse even if he doesn't have to make the corresponding BTS roll if he fails. If it is a mnemonic trick, then you are unfortunately tricking yourself unless you remember that there are some exceptions that are uncommon because people typically don't want to strive for them.
I guess it was always natural to me that "attempting to change a state" is still an attempt regardless of the target being immune to this particular change of state. But definitely something to specify should I offer general advises to someone new. As for template examples, I'm pretty sure rules (and examples) on ITWs directly call for F2F rolls. Perhaps "or if one of these Skills call for F2F directly in its description" was too specific to work here vOv
