Because it would make the Zuyong cheaper? 1W+NWI+whatever immunity is only shitty if the price point isn’t appropriate.
I get that sentiment, but I feel that all the peripheral issues around ‘the HI faction’ are where the problem lies. Not with a pretty reasonable mechanical solution to an ‘all HI’ problem.
No no. How does it make the Shang-Ji better by nerfing Zuyong? And I'm very convinced the pseudo-HI version of Zuyong would save nothing under the current system and my experience with Haidao so far is that it actually is worse than real HI.
Why presume that there isn’t a discount for a set of skills that is objectively worse than two wounds, all else being equal? For arguments sake, what if there was a 3pt saving on the Zuyong profiles? Surely IA is immediately capable of better and more varied list building with an additional12-18pts to spend elsewhere? And to clarify, I don’t think 1W+NWI Zuyong make Shang Ji better. I simply think that simple change would result in a reason to take Shang Ji in IA with their current profiles. And I do believe Shang Ji need some form of tweak. (Maybe N4 will provide it).
As @Mahtamori wrote higher in this thread, looking at haidao vs zuyongs (specifically KHD BS Haidao vs BS Zuyong) it appears that if there's a discount for nwi + shock immunity it's a very small one.
“You can’t compare across factions” bullshit aside; Yadu are considered amazing. Are you seriously saying that 1w, nwi, shock immune zuyongs would be shit at any price? You all need to drop this “2w or not hi” stuff, because cb changed that paradigm a while ago.
No. No and no. First off, Yadu have some pretty loud detractors, they are considered excellent by Yu Jing players because they're everything that's missing, but OSS players are more divided. Second, if you think what me and Sedral have written implies that we think pseudo-HI are terrible, you need to seriously nuance your view and accept that criticism isn't binary. It is possible to criticise something without considering it trash. I am telling you, however, that altering the Zuyong in the current price table is going to make them straight up perform worse. Doctoring soldiers is an important tactical option. Additionally, Haidao are hard-capping them in points. Third... Paradigmwhaatt? The reason I call them pseudo-HI is because there are pseudo-MI that are heavier than them. Labelling them as "heavy" doesn't make sense when "medium" is heavier.
This is the reality, but I hope N4 fixes pricing to the point that Zhencha, Haidao and the other Invincibles get the 2 wounds they deserve.
Yeah and we're allowed to not like it. I just want 2 wounds on my HI, even if it makes them slightly more expensive, because it's always been part of their identity. The only exceptions were ariadnese HI, and the trade-off was to make them unhackable. TBH, I'm pretty sure 1w + shock immunity is actually better in almost any case, even without a discount: it doesn't leave a corpse for classified or template/shotgun shenanigans, NWI also gives you courage which is very valuable for an ARO piece, and it makes you less likely to use a doctor which mean you could easily drop him to free 15/18pts and a place in your combat group. It sucks to be vulnerable to viral though, especially with Dart lurking around.
Depends. Having the full extra wound is useful for doctor purposes. When you have essentially 5 extra wounds that need to be dealt it can really make the difference between being able to get at least part of the link back up and fighting or not having a link at all. At the very least it causes a significantly higher order drain in regards to managing to finish a link off especially if close range low burst weapons are being used like shotguns. Think about how goddamn order taxing Hollowmen (or Karakuri) links are to fully delete to prevent engineers from picking them back up with their remote presence providing extra wounds. It's not a huge deal if you need to pummel one unconscious body to make sure it stays down, but when you gotta do it 2-5 times in a row it feels bad and can well mean you run out of orders half way through trying to dismantle the link. Hospitaler links with their embedded Doctor are another good example of this. Granted this would feel a lot better if Yu Jing had a better support presence and didn't traditionally just say "thank you for your service" and just attempt to cut points to spam another dude, or if shittastic characters/profiles like Krit were a useful profile like an embedded Zuyong doctor. But the concept of being a full blooded 2 wound HI rather than the fake HIs has its merits even if Yu Jing isn't currently the best equipped to make use of it, to which I blame automedkits.
To me it represents cheaper/easier to manufacture tech that works just like it's competitor as a cost effective measure and time saver. I hate using Halo as an example, but in the novels the Spartan IIs while a success showed how expensive and time consuming it was to create super soldiers. They couldn't replenish losses in time even in training. The attrition rate was high, and the suits costed a fortune. Meanwhile, the Spartan IIIs were created as a means to keep the Spartan project alive and boost PR/morale. They were inferior, but could be churned out at a much faster rate. While sub-par product compared to the IIs they were still formidable. Their armor was also cheapened since they had a higher mortality rate and also were easy to replace, unlike the IIs, who were also more durable. TL;DR Fluff can justify the mechanics easily.
As it stands, probably. Let’s not use a KHD as part of the evidence though. The price formula works until it doesn’t. CB seems to recognise this (maybe a bit arbitrarily) As do I. However I’m not waiting for that particular cold day.
@Space Cowboy sure, we could use any of the other Haidao profiles instead and the results would be the same because the formula used is consistent in most adjacent comparisons like this. @-Ghost- @the huanglong they removed some of the medical stuff to make room for more movement and mobility tech. *dontaskwhathulanghaidaogot dontaskwhathulanghaidaogot pleasedontaskwhatmovementtheygot*
@Mahtamori I'd be fine with the Hulang being Irregular, given full 2W, Smoke or Hyperdynamics, and another profile with either a Red Fury or Light Shotgun and HFT. Oh also with Frenzy too now that I think of it. When they first described the Hulang I just thought it was a Monk sealed inside a suit of Power Armour. Haidao I thought was a clear contender for NCO, despite the reservations that the Invincibles have against the Haidaos.
Well, yeah. I'm saying that when we are reverse-engineering the points we are seeing skills rounded individually, since we're actively looking for places where only that one skill is different. You have a lot more faith in CB than I do. A much cheaper/less-capable automedikit.
You can tell who never uses doctors by how much they prefer 1+1 Zuyongs over 2w HI. Zus are already as cut rate as you can get out of HIs while still having that 2 wound threat, cutting their costs down even lower would be of marginal benefit for significant downsides; being able to doctor back your HMG or ML is a major part of recovering from a string of bad luck or poor positioning, I wouldn't give that up for an extra 2 or 3 points per Zuyong. You only really take 2 or 3 per list anyway. This is where I agree with Triumph that Krit would have made a fantastic addition to IA if he were a doctor. As it stands you're better off using your Zus as a defensive team and pushing with your Zhencha or remotes to complete objectives and contest zones. Where does this leave the Shang Ji? I think it still has a place, but only as the attack piece of a Zhanshi core. If you want to do something with Shangs, you have to run a different sort of IA list than was promised with the Zuyong link.
The only use for Shang-Ji I've found so far is the AHD profile. That's the only one you can't compromise for a cheaper unit.
