If you can shoot it, just shoot it :) I think that CC is mostly about situations. It won't come most of the time, but sometimes, it will be the best answer. Like engaging a TAG or an HI just for the sake of slowing it. You know you won't kill it, but it does not matter, since it can't kill you as well (or not without several orders and a bit of luck).
CC is already really rare and right now it's boring! Just not fun at all. It needs something to make it more exciting.
See up-thread, where I initiated CC in all three games in a tournament. Once you reach CC with a CC specialist, it's extremely powerful. What do you regard as fun and more exciting?
I think I also mentioned to bring the CC back down. No longer having CC of 23 or some other nonsense. If the burst goes up the CC needs to come down. It would end up being like shooting from a distance. No longer +3 for this and -3 for that. Think of it as like shooting guns in base to base. For example Kitsune (one of the big CC monsters) comes down to a CC of 15 still high but not drastic. But she’d have a Martial Arts level 4, that can give her a burst of 4 and Damage of 12 with mono. She already tends to kill whatever she comes into contact with, that’s probably not going to change. But now lets say a it’s a Hsien with Martial Arts Level 1 but now a CC of 13. He has a burst of 2 but say he has Brute Strength Level 1. So if he hits with his AP CCW it’s going to do well. But how is that much different than shooting with his HMG in 0 range? No matter what, CC monsters are going to stay CC monsters. But it might make things more interesting for everyone else.
What are you trying to promote with that change? A burst 2 cc13 is worse in cc than burst 1 cc19 ma1. Throwing extra dice with less chance of either unit dying doesn't seem more exciting to me.
Merge or remove the charts for Guard, Protheion, etc. Protheion can just be an add on to a trooper with (or without!) MA. Guard could be either: +3CC, +1PH, +1B in CC (relatively low-key), or +3CC, +1PH, +1B, +1W, with all bonuses going away after the first wound is lost (would require significant point-costing) Then, if the chart is required for additional punch, give the trooper MA. Consider adding a sort of conditional burst, only allowing X hits. May be too odd/unusual/out of the norm for the game, but "roll 2 dice, keeping 1 to determine the FtF results" or "roll 3 dice to attack, keeping 2 to determine the FtF results". This would increase the odds of hitting/critting, but would not necessarily significant increase damage output. That's all I got now...
TBH I was just throwing out there and didn't do any math. But going with it as it is. To me that doesn't seem worse when you have 2 vs. 1. He's also unlikely going to be going against anything better than himself if he can help it. (Really a Hsien would be more of a 14 or 15 CC). Remember, CC would be changed for more than just him. Again, think of it like shooting. The Hsien with BS14 Mutli-Rifle vs Keisotsu BS10 Combi and both in the open. Not put them in base to base, the Kesotsu (now a CC12 for example). Again counting for everyone getting some reduction of CC score. Hsien 2 attacks with AP CCW CC13 vs. Keisotsu 1 Attack with a knife. Maybe not the right word but it does add a lot more complication right now. Just trying to talk it out to a new person takes a long time. "so you want to roll low but high, but on these guys you always want high, but then you add for every number above 20, then you use this skill add +3 to you -3 to them, and then add your date of birth and subract your phone number" yada yada yada. Keep it simple!
I think most agree that the charts need a bit of pruning. I'd also concede that attributes above 20 seem to cause some confusion, not sure where this comes from though. Personally I like CC as it is, its impactful whilst feeling distinctly different from shooting. I can see an argument for making it function closer to shooting and hacking attacks in the name of simplifying things though. I'd agree that mid tier cc is in an odd spot, functioning more as a deterrent than something to be utilised.
That's the main goal for me is to simplify, but also to try to to make a little more exciting and a little less of the little guy getting a lucky roll vs a CC monster.
After the updates to it with Daedalus L3 and L4 do provide +1 Burst. http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Guard
I play jsa and love their almost all or nothing win over the dead bodies style of play. Cc is huge in my strategy. How do I get there, who to hit, what model needs to be neutralized so I can make it. It has 2 effects - when i get there I crush and drink the tears of my opponent. 2 they react to me and have to watch the mid field as I cam get there and kill pretty handily. I would like less charts and a more thoughtful approach, would love extra burst being an element for something. High martial arts, dual wield not sure but would help. Not lower the crit chance on those key killers. I'd love to say make it easier to get there, but that isn't infinity and Iove the challenge. My screaming ho or bound samurai dont mind dying as long as they get to take some with em.
I think that root of cc problem isn’t that melee is swingy but that moving into close combat allows too many unopposed AROs from nearby enemy troops. -> cc attack should count as a dodge. -> engage ARO should be done with cc-stat, not PH
Cutting for space a bit. This isn't quite what "swingy" means. Toadchild's tool presents statistics by making hundreds of rolls for you and presenting the emerging average. As such, whether ssomething is swingy or not can't be measured with his tool. As a gross simplification, anything involving a single roll on each side with high consequences for each side will be swingy. Particularly if both sides are fairly reasonably matched. Take, for example, Shinobu vs Achilles. That's basically 30% vs 30%, each on a single dice, each costing a looot of points and a looot of opportunity potential. That's extremely swingy. Shinobu Engaging most enemies, same there. That enemy is basically dead if she succeeds, but it's about equal chances she'll fail and just die to a knife. On the other hand, a Makaul or Shinobu is so much better than a Fusilier that melee attacks have very small risk or resulting in death, is not swingy at all, in that you are correct, but I don't think anyone is arguing that this part of melee is swingy. Uninteresting, but not swingy.
Agreed. If we were talking N1/N2 CC values (where everything was under 20, even Jerkilles and Musashi maxed out at CC20), then we could say "Your MA skill level is how many extra dice you get to roll" and be done with it. IIRC, a Ninja was CC19 MA3 back in the day (might have even been CC17, I'm away from my books!), and 4 dice (base 1, +3 for MA3) on 17s or 19s is sashimi time. But a Domaru is currently CC23, Berserking, MA3. That's hitting on 32s(23 base, +3 for MA, +6 for Berserk A). I don't want to see multiple dice critting on 8s or higher. Yeah, I think it'd work if we went back to N2 levels of CC numbers if MA increased the B. Huh, I had missed that! Thanks for pointing it out.
I presumed the following from the op was regarding cc in general " A native burst of 1 means that any CC attack is very swingy. In a shootout, the active turn piece has the advantage due to increased burst. Not so with a CC unit" Which is what I was attempting to demonstrate isn't true. Sure two cc specialists gets a bit wierd but a cc specialist vs most things is considerably more reliable than a bs attack from all but the very best units in the game. I find that players often shy away from sinking orders into cc as they underestimate how efficient it is.
I have another interesting concept. Why not pull a page from Dark age and give some sort of charge bonus. If you move into cc on active turn, then you get +1 burst or +3 cc no matter who you are. This could improve the performance of mid tier cc units, while still solidifying cc masters and even give a line trooper with nothing left to lose just enough advantage in a last ditch active turn cc rush. The catch being that its only the order in which you charge, further cc in active turn with the same target will be normal. I think this can balance mid tier cc units. a cc23 MA lvl 3 unit versus a cc 19 MA lvl 1 unit with these mods for a charge gives a one time advantage that closes the gap but still leaves the better combatant with an advantage.
While the math might be good for CC specialists it's not good for normal troops. Take a Keisotsu with bad BS but above avg CC vs a Fusilier with good BS. So we have a unit which is better at CC and worse at shooting than his opponent but shooting is by far the better option (50% chance of winning with shooting, 25% with CC). To me that that means the system is broken.
I feel like this can be captured to a degree in the output I produce - if both models have similar chances to succeed, that’s definitely swingy. If you are interested in more detailed stats like crits vs. armor saves, there is a lot more information under the raw output tab, although it’s not displayed as beautifully.
