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So... N4 Hunh?

Discussion in 'News' started by AdmiralJCJF, Aug 4, 2019.

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  1. Kraken1130

    Kraken1130 Well-Known Member

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    I think a -3 to armor for crits makes crits meaningful and allows everything to still have a chance to hurt everything without ruining the viability of heavily armored units.

    That said with the rise of more EM, ADHL ammo, and other heavy-hitter-stoppers maybe that's OK if their armor makes them super resistant to small arms fire. There are an increasing number of ways to neutralize them outside of raw firepower, so it might be a fair trade off to say crits no longer auto wound because there are other non lethal ways to neutralize heavies.
     
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  2. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I feel like allow an arm save at 0 arm should be a fine compromise for crits
    It still lets combis fell Jotums (which I feel is the intent) while making them a bit less punishing in general
     
  3. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    So many of you calling for crit = ARM 0 clearly never use K1 weapons.
     
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  4. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    I can't wait till the rules for N4 comes out and everyone explodes because none of this wish listing is in it.
     
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  5. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    I literally cannot use K1 weapons, they're not available to my armies.
     
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  6. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    I feel like we have covered most of the obvious topics, so lets move on to some really crazy ideas.

    What if the order system was decoupled from model count? You get 10 orders, whether you bring 5 guys, 10 guys, 15 or even 30 guys. High model armies gain better ARO coverage, flexibility in unit use (I already have one of my 15 guys near the objective), and resiliency in board presence. Low model count armies gain efficiency and power in the active turn, having higher value models to spend their orders on.

    Obviously this is a pretty radical change, not likely to happen, and would require a complete rewrite and rebalancing of the core system. But IF you were going to do a massive change, edition update time would be the opportunity.
     
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  7. McChucho

    McChucho Member

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    Sorry if i cut the quote. I just wanted to chime in for a little thing, so don't mind me. Your point gets across fine. I don't neccessarily agree with the "competitive" and "casual" labels in here. It's mostly about people who can handle the frustration out of randomized results, and people who cannot. You have competition in chess, like you have competition in magic the gathering or poker. Juggling around the possible outcomes of a given action is a very hard skill to acquire, but people tend to dismiss how much value that adds to the game tactically and strategically speaking.

    I also have to add that i disagree greatly with the hatred to critical hits. But i can understand why it can be seen as an element of unfairness.
     
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  8. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    Infinity is a deck of cards. Change one thing it affects others. The notion let's make crits just auto succeed. Ok that is a fine idea but they have to completely change cc units particularly withing JSA. JSA rely on the crit mechanic as it stands. JSA is an army that is incredibly challenging to use as it is. It is also an army that gets a massive amount of interest from people outside the game. Ninjas, saito,oniwaban shinobu all these units are designed around being lethal if you can get them into cc. Considering how challenging that is to do consistently I think just changing crits is a mistake.
    My point is not that you can't change crits but doing so in a vacuum is a mistake. What units rely on that? And do we want to remove that from the game? Most good players I know would say something like "if your plan was totally defeated by a stray crit, then it wasn't a great plan"

    Same goes with nerfing SMG'S. Why does the malignos need it? Would patsy be good at five points more with a combi? Would anyone ever take Andromeda is she didnt have the SMG profile? Instead of looking at individual units please. Look at your list as a whole. Most the time you get strengths in some places but weaknesses elsewhere. Don't be so quick to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    To be fair, they don't have to change much in CC.

    You just tie the "auto damage on Crit" to Martial Arts (which, hopefully, ends up being just one thing).
     
  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    So @psychoticstorm I just want to point out this thread too so you can kill it if you wanted to.
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Just as a counter point, I believe the better question would be, "Would you still take the SMG profile on these troops if the SMG were nerfed?" And for many profiles, I'm pretty sure the answer is a resounding, "Yes!".
     
  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It also bears thinking what are the hallmarks of Infinity? To me, it’s the pairing of ARO and crits. It’s always my turn, and I almost always have a chance.
     
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  13. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Depends on the unit. But dart I'd never take if the SMG were nerfed. Nox it depends (I like those Nox SMG because it keeps costs down which are necessary on that unit)
    Patsy wouldn't get taken.
    Andromeda wouldn't get taken.
    Bounty hunters would because their only goal is to be cheap unit filler.
    Malignos wouldn't get taken. It barely was taken before the update.
     
  14. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
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    Frankly I hope that's the case. Players don't make good rules designers. I'd rather CB write the rules and we play them. CB created n3 and it's been a massive success on past iterations. I trust them to get it right far more than they should listen to me or any other player who may love the game but struggle to see past their own partisan views.
     
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  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Especially, as you stated before, since it’s such a complex, interlinked system, with so many parts that we, as players, can’t, don’t, and won’t see.
     
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  16. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Really, you don't think Dart would be fine if the SMG just had normal ammo?
    Nox: definitely take
    Patsy: She's still the cheapest Orc specialist, were you really taking her for her 0-8" gun-fighting abilities?
    Andromeda: again, are you taking her because she's 28 points or because she has access to AP/Shock? If it's the former, you'd still take her without the extra ammo types. If it's the latter, I'm pretty sure there are far better ways to bring those ammo types than Andromeda...
    BH: as you say.
    Malignos: This I really take issue with. I take the Malignos KHD because it's a 33 point infiltrating TO specialist, not because it has AP/Shock. I can save 3 points on a last turn hidden objective run (Malignos FO is the only other option here at 36 points).

    Some you forgot...
    Caliban: very yes. Shock is counter-productive and AP doesn't do anything to its natural prey. Bring on the discounts!
    Bit: once again, getting a KHD for a discount is what we're going for here. I couldn't care less what the gun actually does.
    Zencha (FO): What do you care about more here, a camo infiltrating specialist for "cheap" or a camo infiltrating specialist with shock/AP ammo?

    There are more, but I think the point is that many of these profiles are taken for their discount over other profiles (or what those profiles would be with BSGs/combis, etc.), not because they have access to Shock/AP on a suppressive weapon. That's just icing on the cake... and frankly that icing is just as thick as the cake itself. Makes for a pretty bad cake IMO.

    I guess it does depend on what you are thinking the nerf would be. Obviously some of these profiles would be worth much less if the SMG because worse than a pistol... and simply advocating for removing the different ammo types and/or perhaps a slight point bump.
     
  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    You think as I do.
     
  18. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    My memory of 2nd edition TAGs was that a TAG actually using the Overrun rule was grounds for buying rounds of drinks, and breaking out smelling salts to revive the fainted. :beers:

    It suffered from all of the problems that Warmachine/Hordes trample does:
    • You can't use it to clear space for the model using it to get where you want to go. If they're going to dodge, they don't actually have to move out of the way to avoid damage.
    • It doesn't go far enough to be useful, and the bigger your base size is, the fewer situations you'll be able to use it due to geometry
    and on top of that:
    • Because this is Infinity, anyone you're not running over still gets to shoot you, and they'll be getting normal rolls.
    It'd have to be completely rewritten to do something like use both movement values, have a dodge component, and the ability to shove stuff out of the end position. And then you'd have to explain why you're not using that as unarmed grappling rules for regular troopers as well.

    Because what's power armor supposed to be good for, anyway? :triumph:

    This message brought to you by Daturazis for Throwing Humans, and the Raicho Pilots Association. :muscle:
     
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  19. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    So, I’ll throw in my two cents. I have two changes in my mind:

    Change 1: Don’t worry about the game meta. I am fine with keeping most of the things “as is” that other people are complaining about (link teams and board design and cost of weapons and crits and whatever). Make some of those changes if you must, but that will just shift the unit meta and the role chance plays in the game. There’s nothing in that stuff that’ll _improve_ Infinity’s playability as a system.

    _Instead_

    Fix how the game is structured. Infinity is a complex ruleset, and much of that complexity is exacerbated from ill-defined terms, exceptions, and odd interactions. Let’s try to fix that. We need keywords to function like keywords, with straight-forward definitions. We need types of orders and actions to have clear definitions that indicate interplay with one another. We need trooper vs. marker vs. unit vs. equipment to be defined quantities used consistently. Where possible, things need to be inferable based on related concepts. If a _rules_ concept adds little to nothing, condense it. And we need for the English and Spanish language rulesets to match (insofar as they can), so we can stop guessing about which one takes precedence.

    When a rules exception exists (as it sometimes must), it needs to be clearly noted in all the relevant entries - none of this having to track stuff down in examples, especially when those examples are two links away from the rule in question in some other rule. This is another place that those inferable keywords become important, and maybe some kind of resolution priority or “stack” approach for inferring resolutions to complex interactions/conflicts that don't make sense with simultaneous resolution.


    Change 2: Let us play it and give you an errata before it goes live.

    Remember when Season X came out and we were coming up with ways to break all the xenotech missions in hours and it took months to clean up? That could have been avoided by having the community give feedback on the ruleset. We have a huge community of people interested in making this next product work. Let us find the structural problems before they go live. Crowdsource it. You want this to go live at GenCon 2020? Great, give us the ruleset (or something like it) at adepticon. Let us play (non-ITS) games with the new version at our game stores and kitchen tables. It’ll smooth out the transition to N4.

    My concern is that the focus in this thread is on changing the rules to meet some meta preferences. I’d rather not swamp CB’s limited bandwidth (especially now that they have 3 games to manage), when the real issue infinity has is that the rules can be obtuse. If we make these structural changes to the already working ruleset, then anything we do to the meta on top of that going forward will at least work.


    Quick addendum: ITS seaonal rules should be rules changes to the base game with a defined sunset. Not changing the underlying game is silly when everyone is playing with the rules changes from ITS anyway (right?) and if they’re not, then they’re probably not paying attention to the rules update anyway…
     
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  20. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Of course, too "black out" is a thing, but you can use it against...? Repeaters? Hackers Devices? Am I forgeting anything more? (I'am not pretend to be sarcastic).
    In Spootlight case, you use it when you are trying to do the objetive and "less more". How many times you use "spootlight" in order to shoot speculative fire later? Maybe is a thing for my play zone, but never I see nobody using this option as a valid strategic battle plan.

    When I said "hacking against more things" I was thinking in something bigger than we already have.

    Best regards!! :)
     
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