Which created a couple of very long discussion threads regarding what it actually meant until, I think it was Koni, finally answered them a year after they became a regularly recurring feature. Does it mean you can use them in the same order or is it clarifying that Limited Camo doesn't provide the benefits of Camo or Mimetism when revealed unless you have a separate skill in future orders.
RAW they shouldn't... they are using the CH: LEVEL Y. LIMITED CAMOUFLAGE in that order that has the NFB label but no negative visual MOD attached, so they shouldn't be able to combine it with the CH: LEVEL 1. MIMETISM which also has that label. This last line could be given the permission to ignore that... but it's not clear at all; it could be a reminder that CH:Y doesn't grant the CH:1 and CH:2 skills.
Then it'd be highly effective at dealing with expensive NWI troopers. It needs to lose both AP and Shock.
I think Shrouded would be the same. It's incredibly revealing as to how cheap the SMG actually is for what you get.
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but... Why not make the SMG a weapon category? Something smaller and cheaper than a combi, but with more dakka than a pistol (as it should be) Same range band, suppressive fire, Damage 12, no special ammo. And then, when needed give some troops something like a AP SMG (or Breaker or anything else they fancy) And just treat the SMG like a platform rather than the all encompassing tool it is at the moment.
Yeah, that is another option we've kinda been kicking around. But even then, DAM13 B3 Suppression Fire Capable with 0-8/+3, 8-16/0, 16-24/-3 and 24-32/-6 range bands would still be undercosted.
And giving it pistol damage (or 12?). I feel like without Suppressive fire, it's kinda completely pointless compared to an assault pistol (Not that the Assault Pistol is as common) I do agree that at the very least it shouldn't pack the punch of a combi rifle)
Options that some or all could be done as far as I see -Add a cheap Machine Pistol, B4 D11 N ammo, a low tech Assault Pistol. (No real reason I just think it'd be fun...) -Make the "SMG" a D12N weapon, replace some SMGs in play without points changes -Add the "MULTI SMG" for hi-tech armies, increase points of units switching to it, make it D12 or 13 depending on what the pistol's rules turn out to be -Add the "PDW" for lo-tech armies, D12 AP or Shock, increase points of units that keep the current SMG AP/Shock but shouldn't have multi for whatever reasons. -Just fix the points costs on the current SMG in N4.
Yeah, the point to the SMG in the real world is to have a large magazine capacity for lots of full-auto fire. What we'd call Suppressive fire in Infinity, really. But DAM13 Suppressive fire needs to cost nearly as much as a combirifle!
Especially considering it's better than a combi when they're both in suppressive! Drop the ammo types and make it 2-3 points cheaper than a combi (i.e. only slightly less than a BSG). Make it slightly more expensive on troops than can start upfield (but that requires synergy tweaking). As mentioned before, give some troops a Shock SMG or AP SMG if they need it, upping the cost appropriately.
I just wanted to say that i completely agree with that, i actually kinda overlooked that when they're in suppressive fire, they're the same (or as the next user said, the SMG is actually better in those circumstances)
Since we have n4 coming up why not change the rules for suppressive. I mean I can't be the only one that thought - why dies an smg shoot as well as a real rifle and an hmg as poorly as a rifle when in suppression. I get game balance issue just thinking they could make suppression only work to a guns plus 3 range band. So smg gets 8 in suppression combined 16 and hmg long range suppression...well mid range? Still keeps smg worth suppression but a little more selective and situational. Of course I still kinda feel ap and shock shouldn't be a thing in the little weapon that could.
Because you're just spraying and praying in the current version of Suppression Fire. You can't shoot very well at any serious distance that way, so an MG's heavier weight makes it harder to swing around a wide arc, while the SMG's lesser recoil compared to the rifle makes it easier to get more shots in the general direction of the pop-up target. It does actually make sense if you've shot in a military setting before. Within ~50m, an SMG with a shoulder stock is the equal of an assault rifle. Maybe 100m, but beyond that it's really hard to get hits due to bullet trajectory. An assault rifle is point-and-click to 200-300m, maybe 500m with lots of training. More than that you need a bigger cartridge and better sights, like a Dragunov compared to an AK. Well, Suppressive Fire changed between N2 and N3. In N2, it was a 2" wide Corridor of Doom(tm) where everything crossing it, friend foe or even camo marker(!), ate a full B attack. Basically, the Suppressing trooper was laying down a constant stream of fire in a single direction. No penalty to the model eating the shots, though. Any suppression fire penalty was in the head of the opponent, instead of a dice penalty. While I do miss the Corridor of Doom(tm), I think the current version of Suppression Fire is better gameplay.
Ideally N4 should fix what's broken - and the core suppressing fire isn't broken, IMO. There's scope to make it do all sorts of things but it can verge on complexity for the sake of complexity at some points. Better, IMO, to adjust the weapon, not just one of the reasons why it is so good for the price.
In n2 suppression fire wasn't exactly broken neither. It had a very different gameplay, was more used during the turn, trying to force the enemy to fail guts or eat a lot in reactive, instead of at the last order with a command to put some troopers enter the state . You could ftf roll when entering the state, and even do it through smoke (with the -6 if no MSV2), using the base burst of the weapon allways (with no extras like dual weapon). But CB reworked it completely for it to bring value to short range weapons like combi instead of hmg and so. So maybe now they might rework it even if its not broken
What might be interesting would be for the Suppression Fire rule to go back to N2, but Full Auto L2 keeps the -3 in FtF rolls.
How much of this do you all think is the SMG being undercosted versus Combis/other basic BS weapons just being overcosted? The LSG has a pretty similar cost to the SMG, and it also looks undercosted when you stack it up against the Combi (see Rifle LSG combo). If the Combi instead cost 2 points less than it does now, and the BSG one point less, would the SMG feel more okay?
