Not really, because CB will plug units into sectorials without changing points costs, so they don't, either. ABHs are amazing in Dashat, and they didn't get a commensurate points increase to go with their increased utility. In fact they got a points discount, in the form of a new, cheaper, 12 point profile. I explicitly stated that the order system should be factored into what a unit's offensive power was. The points cost of units doesn't change based off of what their army's order count is, the availability of support pieces, and so on, which is actually a problem, but I have no reason to suspect that O-12 will be unable to support the Omega. Well technically less activations would mean less offensive power, not less durability, but I see what you're saying. On the other hand, Zuyongs don't have a price hike in Dashat, so no, that's not how CB's pricing scheme works, and there's no reason to suspect that the Omega was costed the way it was based on synergistic effects. Tricky to say since Limited Insertion is something that every faction can be forced into, and some factions flat-out do it better than others.
I agree – but look at the reverse, so many units get a pass for being totally dog-shit in vanilla because they're acceptable in sectorials or are reliant on link teams to work. It would be nice to see new units and profiles made with vanilla in mind instead of the sectorial they're going to fit into. Well I'm glad we're on the same page here. These things should absolutely be factored into the overall viability and usability of a particular unit. It's short sighted to just glance at a points cost and deem it power creep or terrible without the surrounding context. This is an area where I think the "points formula" could use a little work. With less orders you obviously have less activations to hide your unit, go suppressive, move WB/Infiltraors closer to drop mines, recamo, set up a jammer, ect ect. Not just stomp and shoot that HMG. That's what I mean by less durable – throughout the game you're going to have fewer orders to spend on defense versus a more order abundant faction/sectorial. To me it seems like CB wants to push those fewer order games. Most of the new sectorials we've seen try and push fewer orders or incentivize us to take, bigger, tougher models. I'm interested to see if O-12 tries to break this trend or if they'll continue it. But anyway, I think most of the community agrees that LI lists are unofficial "Hard Mode". LI tournaments can be fun but its painfully apparent that some factions are better than others. Theres still a lot we have yet to see.
In the end, that's more tolerable, because those units will simply not be run in Vanilla. It's more worrying when new units break the upper end of the power curve. Sectorials are the new design paradigm for Infinity, however. Making new units for Vanilla is questionable. It needs to be more than just a formula, since it keys off of other things in the sectorial/faction as well. I think CB is schizophrenic on the issue. Look at Invincible Army and Dashat - Invincible Army was clearly created to be a small, elite force with abilities that generated extra orders to make that more viable. Then these abilities got cannibalized for a sectorial that's capable of running a lot of cheap orders, including hypercheap skirmishers in the form of Libertos who are almost autoincludes in vanilla factions. The message is "You should play Limited Insertion, but we're only going to reward classic spammy play."
In an ideal world I would be just as likely to use my new Varuna Div. ORC in vanilla as I am in Varuna, but unfortunately that's not the case. I'd like to see more one-off minis and profiles exclusive to Vanilla – just as an incentive to not forget about them I totally agree with you I absolutely agree with you – it seems a little backwards for CB to give out things like Tac awareness to the Suryat, which should have totally been a Morat exclusive profile, but then also give it to Onyx. I like that they're trying to make the smaller, more elite factions and sectorials get their own play style and buffs but they need something that is exclusive to them. like really exclusive. preferably something like a discounted ODD HMG HI! Things can deviate from the trend, their can be outliers. But I would also argue that Spiral is totally viable in LI and they do incentivize you to play them this way. For one, what is essentially your line troop is 16 points. They've also given you a way to get that 5-man link bonus without actually having to take 5 models, freeing up another 2 spots in the combat group to take those more expensive, heavy solo pieces. Of course this is just my observation, you can always load up on irregular orders and take their elite light infantry and that is arguably better, but you can't deny that the thought from CB is there.
The point is there is supposed to be a neutral formula that doesn't take into account any of those factors at all
All I'm saying is CB doesn't really care about that sacred formula of them as lately they are gaming it hard, which is quite unfair to the old factions that don't enjoy that kind of munchkinism
It's not "the old factions" that are the issue. Remember that factions don't equate to sectorials. It's that when they go back and revise the old sectorials, they do barely a cursory overhaul in many cases. Slap a few new units in, toss 'em mixed fireteams and call it a day.
Eh, I worry about Vanilla becoming the "true" choice and sectorials being considered lesser - they really need to emphasize that sectorials have advantages in gunfighting etc. Units like the Kriza are a problem. Nah. Onyx getting the Tac Awareness Suryats was fine. Suryats were always in Onyx, and they're both part of the Combined Army so it makes sense that the same veteran Morats would be in both. Moreover, the AVA total basic troop of both sectorials has the same points cost, and Suryats aren't as good at forming fireteams in Onyx, so in the end the Tac Awareness profiles mean less for Onyx by a substantial degree. This is different from the situation with Dashat, where Tac Awareness Zuyongs get both cheaper link filler in the form of ABH's and a unique attack piece in the form of the Rui Shi, which YJ can't link *anywhere*. The difference here is that Dashat seems to be getting the goodies and favoritism more than the parent faction, which rubs people the wrong way, justifiably. Compound it with YJ being a faction that's portrayed as both uniquely villainous and uniquely incompetent in recent fluff and it's an issue.
Frankly, the real issue is that "vanilla" is able to take anything and everything that the Sectorials can. I would have zero issue with vanilla actually seeing a far more restrictive roster, with no Headquarters Troops(seriously, why do we even have these classifications if nothing's done with them?) being available at all.
I also don't get why vanilla gets all sectorial characters. Something like Mary problems would be great to draw people into Tunguska and really show that tunguska has some of the most hardcore hackers. But currently it just boosts vanilla.
Spiral's a Sectorial. Is there something Shasvastii that can't be in vanilla? And I don't mean specific profiles--I mean full on units, period, being unavailable.
Exactly, and I think that's what Hec wants, smaller, more condescend and focused factions as opposed to the large, sometimes incoherent vanillas.
