Sixth Sense and Smoke Special Dodge

The effects apply only on successful rolls, yes, but the template which determines who is affected by the attack is placed on declaration.

Let's go backwards.

Myrmidon B is trying to use Special Dodge to avoid the attack. We look at Special Dodge for if the enemy needs LOF to the Myrmidon. We read that "only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed". Here's the critical passage. Special Dodge doesn't require the attacker to require LOF to the smoking model, it only requires the attack to require LOF.
Unless you're using a weapon that removes LOF requirement, then a BS Attack declaration requires LOF.

So, from what vulnerabilities I can see in my reading and what might fell it should I have missed something critical;
You need to prove is either that the template rules make a specific exception for secondary targets in terms of avoidance declarations.
-or-
You need to prove that the template rules specify that the attack against secondary targets, specifically, originates from the blast focus.
-and-
You need to prove that whichever of the above doesn't also apply to the main target. (However, I can't see this one actually succeeding since the rules literally states that all models are affected equally)

 

From RAW, you are write. From game point of view/RAI, you are wrong.

If the roll is a failure, the rocket/grenade/... never hit its target and the big kaboom never happened, so the plastic template maybe there but the explosion never happened (which is what we all think of when we put our template down)

Only on the main target. As I told a few post above.

No LoF is necessary between secondary target and attacker
See my previous post :
Why you need LoF on the main target : "The user of one of these weapons must declare a main valid target, and that target is used as a reference to place the Template."
Why you don't for secondary target : "Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment."

LoF to determine if a secondary target is hit or not is measured from the blast focus : "Each Template has a Blast Focus to determine if nearby scenery protects a trooper from the Template's effects. If LoF can be drawn from the Blast Focus to the trooper, then that trooper is affected by the Template. However, if the LoF cannot be drawn due to the presence of a piece of scenery, then the trooper is considered to be in Total Cover and is not affected by the Template."

Easy : "The user of one of these weapons must declare a main valid target, and that target is used as a reference to place the Template." => LoF between the main target and attacker is necessary. If the smoke block said LoF, then it blocks the attack (and its effect) on the main target

 

It feels like I'm trying to teach a wall by slamming my head into it.

The attack doesn't need LOF to the secondary target, but it needs LOF. Special Dodge doesn't care who the attack needs LOF to, only that it needs LOF. Thus you can Special Dodge the attack.

That's not a proof at all! What that says is that it's used as a reference to place the template, what I'm asking for is that you prove that "Any trooper in base contact with a Template" has a specific exception for the main target. That's a quote from http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Area_of_Effect which is the very fundamentals of the Template rules.

Also, the way you're arguing regarding template placement would mean it's impossible to declare Dodge a template attack as secondary target until after it is resolved (which translates to "never" because of Order Expenditure Sequence) because Dodging it is part of the effects.

 

That's not the way I understand it as explained previously :

To put it more simply, smoke dodge says that : If a LoF between the attacker and the main target is necessary, then "smoke dodge" is possible ("Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed.")

On this case you understand "require LoF" as "any LoF". => Nothing back this up

I understand it as "a LoF between the two trooper that are interacting right now" (attacker and secondary target). => this is backed up by the fact that the LoF "between the two trooper that are interacting right now (attacker and secondary target)." is the one used to determine what kind of ARO is possible

For the main target, yes it is. To be a valid target in a BS attack, a LoF is necessary. So if the main target need to be "a valid target" then a LoF between the attacker and the main target is necessary.

If a LoF between the attacker and the main target is necessary, then "smoke dodge" is possible ("Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed.")

I used "placed" in a figurative/cinematic POW, from RAW perspective, I already admitted you were right (twice). Do you need a third ?

 

Lol, I adressed that in the part of the post you ignored XD

Important point here; what determined if the template is placed is a normal roll, not a FfF roll; you can fail to hit the main target (lose FtF), pass the normal roll and still hit secondary targets

Main target agree, secondary disagree; LoF has nothing to do with being hit. LoF with the secondary target (a requisite for using smoke dodge) is irrelevant in this case; that's why I think B can't smoke dodge.

 

You know what, fuckit. Set up an unsolved question.

Can a trooper who is affected by a template attack, but is not main target, use smoke special ammunition to make a Special Dodge face to face?
A) Yes, as long as the attack requires LOF and the smoke is blocking the LOF required by the attack.
B) No, the secondary targets aren't affected by the same attack as the primary target
C) No, Special Dodge can only be used against attacks that require LOF to the user of Special Dodge.

 

Where ? Even rereading you, I miss that

I agree on the meaning but not the wording.

To determine is the template will affect secondary target, the main target ARO as no influence so it's close to a "normal roll"

Yet, to me the placement of the template is a "special" face to face roll and not a normal roll because a crit on this roll interact with the main target ARO => so there is interaction between the two roll so it's name is face to face

I agree with you, you missed the second part of my argyment that said case A and B don't work so smoke dodge don't work

Case a doesn't allow smoke special dodge to work because : a LoF between the attacker and secondary target is not necessary to hit the secondary target. So blocking said LoF doesn't protect secondary target from damages
Case b doesn't allow smoke special dodge to work because this LoF is not the one between you and the attacker

It's already an unsolved question (the very first one). It just need to be edited to add one possible situation (added under "situation 2")

 

Uff, this thread is starting to be a bit cumbersome. I'm going to make a reboot so we can focus in the important parts:

The question:

This is covered in "Impact template weapons"

So there is no 2 attacks, it's a template attack with special rules. It's a BS attack (which need LoF by definition) and a target, the template is placed over that target which may give the attack secondary targets.

So making it short, FtF roll versus each model under the template, the attacker only apply MODs and criticals versus the main target. Secondary targets roll versus the original attack roll (using the MODs of the primary target) but without suffering any crit effect.

Now, special dodge smoke:

Versus the main target this is an attack that fulfill those 3 requisites (LoF versus him, roll required, template placed between both).
Versus the secondary targets... it's very odd but revising it maybe secondary targets may also fulfill these (LoF with main target, roll and template placed between main target and attacker).
So I'd say in the case the secondary target may use the BS attack, he can use the special dodge too.

Now the secondary question is, can this secondary target (B) use the smoke grenades?
Sixth sense RAW it could, however SS works differently as how it's written so no idea.

I'd give you this case is really counterintuitive tho.

 

I thought this question was about whether Myr B could smoke dodge throw smoke because it's a BS attack with no LoF to the attacker (even with SSL2) due to scenery in the way...

As noted, what this thread has turned into is just a rehash from before.

 

I gave my answer on the first page, but I think the rules are ambiguous and I would be happy to have a formal clarification.

I still don’t see how sixth sense meaningfully changes the scenario from the older thread on a similar subject.

 

You've lost me, LoF to the main target is a requirement of declaring a BS Attack, template weapon or no.

 

I used to be with you on this one, but from a RAW standpoint you have a bit of a paradox:

Things that are known -

• The "main valid target" is only a "reference used to place the template".
• All other mentions of who is affected by the attack and why talk about it being because they are under the template.
• Therefore, the reason a main target is considered attacked is the same as the reason a secondary target is attacked.

From these points, you can draw one of two conclusions:

• Neither the "main target" nor any "secondary targets" are allowed to "smoke dodge" because the smoke will not act like total cover for the blast focus.

OR

• Both the "main target" and any "secondary targets" are allowed to "smoke dodge" because the attack itself required LoF (it does not mention LoF from what to what, just that the attack required it). Also note that in this case, the smoke would have to be placed such that it blocks LoF between the attacker and Mrym A (though cannot protect Myrm A whether successful or not).

I actually believe that neither of these is correct from an RAI standpoint because (I believe) the intention of the whole "smoke dodge" rule is that it can be used only if it would prevent future attacks from the exact same source. In this case, A could smoke for a F2F and B could not. However, if this is actually where they wanted the rules to land, they will need to rewrite the template rules or the smoke dodge rules as they currently stand.

 

You forget a few details that make the main target different from secondary targer :
- a LoF is necessary between main target and attacker, not the case for other target
- main target modifier (ODD, TO, cover...) are used for the BS attack roll, the other target modifier are irrelevant
- main target can receive a crit from the attacker, other target can't

For these reason, to me the main target is in a standard BS attack situation, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Yes, and what's missing here is a rule which makes this relevant to working out Special Dodge since none of that actually makes a difference to Special Dodge' requirements.

 

Be careful, or otherwise you're going to end up saying that the primary target is hit twice - once for the BS Attack you resolved, and once for the template rules.

 

The point is, for as this kind of attack are worded, they can be treated as the same for the secondary targets; making the smoke dodge legal in that situation (which is really weird, I know. But it's how it's seem to work from a rules point of view)

 

Read back. That's what I've been telling people they are saying when they're reading the attack as resulting in a separate template attack with a point of origin in the blast focus.

 

So, based on this, when the main target lost his opposition it is wounded twice ? Is it really the way you play ?

 

DUDE!

Read what I wrote!

That's what you are writing. Because that's the consequences of what you write when taking all mechanics into account. No I don't play like that, because the missile launcher will generate only one attack and all under the templates, including the main target, are subjected to the same attack which requires LOF to the main target.